Attempted Kidnapping / Child Abduction

FUD

Moderator
I was in a bookstore at the mall the other day reading an article by Massad Ayoob in a GunRag when I heard a whole bunch of screaming and yelling and commotion in the mall. So I placed the magazine back on the rack (almost walked off with it) and went out to take a look as a crowd started to gather.

I saw two young punks (late teens/early twneties) roughing up a middle-aged (mid-forties, maybe late thirties or even early fifties) man in a business suit while a mother (or maybe an older sister) was trying to comfort a crying young girl (pre-teen -- maybe around ten or so).

My initial thoughts were that these two punks were picking on the girl and when the father came to the rescue, they turned on him. I was puzzled as to why no one else in the crowd was coming to this help this gentleman and thoughts raced through my head as to whether, if seeing me offer some assistance, anyone else in the crowd would also get involved.

However, as I got closer, a different picture began to paint itself ... It turns out that the mother was inside one of the stores and the young girl was standing in the doorway -- sort of half in the store and half in the mall when the "gentleman" in the suit came by and grabbed her by the arm and tried to make her come with him for reasons which will forever be unknown but which I hate to even think about.

She reacted as she was properly taught and started screaming. The two "punks" were actually heros in this situation as they came running to the girl's aid and were now holding the individual in the suit for mall security & keeping him from getting away until the police arrived.

This incident reminded me once again that things are not always the way that they initially appear to be and it also got me thinking as to what the proper course of action would have been the right one to take if things worked out slightly differently:<OL TYPE=1><LI> What is the proper course of action to take when coming upon an individual holding a crying child by the arm who is trying to get away. In this particular case, stopping the individual was the proper course of action because he was a stranger with unknown motives but what happens if the individual was a parent and the child was just being a brat. Getting involved in a family matter, if the parent is not being abusive, would only make matters worse but not to get involved is also the wrong thing not to do.
<LI> My initially thoughts, before learning all of the details, were to help this guy out. What would you do if there was no one else around except for the crying girl and the two teenagers roughing up a guy in a suit who was screaming & pleading for them to leave him alone? Getting involved would have given him an opportunity to break free and get away -- leaving him free to prey on someone else in the future.</OL>What would other board members have done in these situations when faced with multiple unknowns?

FUD
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Share what you know & learn what you don't


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 25, 2000).]
 
Fud, who's watching over you? :D

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See the Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
 
From what I gather this is the proper course of action according to the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

1. Shoot the mother in the head.
2. Shoot the girl in the back as she runs away.
3. Shoot the 2 young guys because they are acting in a hostile manner.
4. Burn down the mall to "cleanse" it of evil.
5. Apprehend the middle age guy as he flees from the burning building and then use him as a witness to fact that he was heroically attempting to rescue the young girl from a group of child molesting anti-government right wing militia cultists.
 
John, I don't think that anybody is watching over me -- I was a witness to an attempted crime after the fact along with about a hundred other people. FUD.
 
Darn FUD......looks like that little black cloud is still following you around. :eek:

Stay safe my friend, we need you around here. :)

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
No wonder you carry a gun, FUD, everything is going to he!! all around you...from ghosts, to mysterious racing and crashing cars, to punk heroes thumping on a jerk kidnapper in a suit. If you ever decide to leave Florida, please let the rest of us know so that we can check our insurance and ammo supplies. There is a dark cloud over you, near you, or following you.
 
Yeah, Fud, I know that... it's just that you are in the most... mmmm... technically troublesome situations sometimes... no, many times!

:D

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See the Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
 
The problem is that while restraining the man was proper, the roughing up was not. Unless the roughing up was accidental, happening only due to his resistance to being restrained from leaving, the two guys were truly guilty of assault.

(I grant that I'm in total accord with their attitude...)

I grant you that it can be dicey, but stopping violence beyond that necessary for apprehension is a legal endeavor.

FWIW, Art
 
FUD,
I think you made a good choice pausing to see what was going on before charging in- especially since no one was in the process of leaving the scene or blazing away indiscriminately.
That reminds me when I was in a mall once and there was an altercation. I happened to be coming out of The Coffee Beanery (which is, incidentaly, where I want to be buried when I slough off this mortal coil. The aroma IS heaven!) When I saw two young males and a female making a commotion. At first glance it looked like one of the guys was assaulting the girl. That is one of my personal peeves. I was about to step in when I thought something seemed wierd. I paused.
After a moment it turned out that the guy wasn't assaulting the girl, he was confronting the other guy. The girl was trying to get between them while her boy was doing the "hold me back" routine. He didn't really want to get into a real fight with the other guy who was making a semicircle trying to "get at" the other guy around the girl. There must have been at least 12 feet between them, well out of arm's reach. Neither was armed and neither was interested in anything but making a good show so he could later lay on a good brag.
Since there were no blows being thrown I positioned myself to the left and a step behind Mr. Holdmeback! where I could clip him if he looked like he was getting too fiesty. After an eon or two the security guard showed up. The rattle from his utility belt- which would have made Batman seem like a kid with a Swiss army knife- could be heard halfway down the hall.
I think if I had stepped in I probably would have been jumped by both guys, the girl, and probably some of the 5000 live audience members who had gathered for the spectacle. As it was the security guard and his backup dealt with the nuisance and I didn't even spill my coffee. :D
Aaaahhhhhhhh, coffee, elixir of the gods! I think I shall go have some!

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[This message has been edited by Apple a Day (edited August 26, 2000).]
 
By the way, I should mention that this didn't happen in my home state of Florida but in my former home state of NJ (Bridgewater Commons Mall located at the intersections of US22, US202/206 and NJ28 in Bridgewater, NJ which is over in Somerset county) -- I was there on a short business trip and this happened while I briefly stopped in to get reading material for the plane ride back home. If there are any members from that area, I would be interested in hearing more details (I'm sure the Newark Star-Ledger must have had an article on it).

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 26, 2000).]
 
I have lost my " Kill 'em all . Let God sort them out " mentality . So shoot everybody is not an option . But the solution seems very simple given the facts . AND taking into account the way things seem to go nowadays . The mother is not a threat , neither is the little child . The main problem consists of two youths and the guy in the suit .
First things first . Stop the fight while making sure to contain the guy in the suit . If he's the bad guy you can detain him . If he is the victim he will gladly stay near to you . The 2 youths ? It does not matter whether they are attackers or heroes . If they are hereos they will stay to posture , talk crap and , of course testify . If they are guilty of assault they will run but the juvenile court will send them home anyway so you " ain't cuttin' a fat hog " by collaring them at this point .
The first and foremost concern is to stop the chaos . If the guy in the suit tries to run this is a sign that he is a wrongo and you should detain him . By force if necessary claiming that he seemed unsteady on his feet due to the thunderous pounding from the 2 guys and you meant to merely settle him down since the altercation was now over .The 2 guys staying will quickly reinforce this suspicion therby relieving you of any unlawful detention crapola this guy may want to try .
The mother will also at this time undoubted be yelling things that will lead you to the situation in it's true form . " He tried to take my baby " is one , or " My God , they tried to kill him " would be another . She will voice the "bottom line" loudly .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
1) Protection of the weaker individual is our duty. Protection of the weak is noble. Stopping someone who is holding a child who is trying to get away is a tough question. Before any action on our part is taken, some information must first be known. Is the kid being a kid and crying to go back to the toy store? Is the child terrified? If so, terrified of what? A haircut? (My boy is apprehensive of the big Easter bunny at the Mall. He was 18months old at the time, and didn't care for the big dumb rabbit. He thought it was an ATF mole, I think.) But if we have reason to believe the child is in danger, then we have the duty to at least question the adult. It is alway better to ask a personal, awkward question to someone, than to do nothing and question yourself the rest of your life.


2.) Depends upon the level of violence the young heroes were using. If the young men were merely trying to restrain the older man, then I would stay close and wait for authorities to show. If the older man were in real danger of being truely hurt, then it is our duty to restrain everyone involved, if possible. At least restrain the aggressor.

Tough question FUD. I can only post hypothetical answers here. But the principle of "Life is sacred and worth protecting" should be our anthem. This includes our own.

In my opinion, I think you did the right thing by assesing the situation to the highest possible degree prior to taking a course of action, based on what you said and what I have posted above.

regards.

PS. Interesting question, I like these little ethical questions.
 
I would have held in there to see what developed. I would be hesitant to help either party since I did not witness any wrong-doing but happend upon it. Had you been there to see the whole thing, it would have been a different story. However, there are too many things that have happened before what you are witnessing that could up the ante a bit. At any rate, I would continue to hang around. Being that if there were 1000 people available to witness it, you'd be surprised that probably not even 10 would give an account as to what they saw.

On a site note.. with the child pulling away from the adult.. ..that seems pretty cut-n-dry to me. If a child is pulling away from an adult, I think it would be obvious if the child and adult are parent/child. If the child does not belong to the adult, or is certainly in harm, I think it would be evident with the struggle the child would be presenting. However, with all things, there is always an exception to the rule.

MP Freeman had mentioned that it was noble to protect the weaker... In reference to a child or woman, this is certainly true. I can remember being in a mall one evening and watching a parent severely beat a child for something petty such as wanting to go back into the toy store. After witnessing this for a minute or two, I had the nerve to tell this gentleman that if he struck that child in front of me again, I was going to "throw down" and have it out with him then and there. He was seriously offended and gave a friend of mine a look of question as to say "You can't be serious?!" at which point my friend quitely nodded. He quickly left the scene (since I was helping him cause one). Was I in line? I think so. Watching a man heavily slap a small child (4/5) in the face did not seem like proper discipline to me. :mad:

But every situation is different...

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

[This message has been edited by KaMaKaZe (edited August 28, 2000).]
 
FUD:
Well, after actually reading the entire thread I see this didn't happen here in FL, guess I should pay more attention. Well at least everything worked out well. There are some screwed up people running around out there. Many, many thanks for the info on that film BTW ! That stuff looks like a realy good idea.

[This message has been edited by scud (edited August 28, 2000).]
 
scud, Glad the film was of help to you. FUD.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 28, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Imbroglio:
From what I gather this is the proper course of action according to the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

1. Shoot the mother in the head.
2. Shoot the girl in the back as she runs away.
3. Shoot the 2 young guys because they are acting in a hostile manner.
4. Burn down the mall to "cleanse" it of evil.
5. Apprehend the middle age guy as he flees from the burning building and then use him as a witness to fact that he was heroically attempting to rescue the young girl from a group of child molesting anti-government right wing militia cultists.
[/quote]


This still has me laughing. Or, is it crying from the sheer truth of it all.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
By the way, I should mention that this didn't happen in my home state of Florida but in my former home state of NJ (Bridgewater Commons Mall located at the intersections of US22, US202/206 and NJ28 in Bridgewater, NJ which is over in Somerset county) -- I was there on a short business trip and this happened while I briefly stopped in to get reading material for the plane ride back home. If there are any members from that area, I would be interested in hearing more details (I'm sure the Newark Star-Ledger must have had an article on it).

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 26, 2000).]
[/quote]

Damn FUD I always thought that was a Nice Mall!! Then, again I havent been there in umm 2years. I have family down close by that mall I will have to ask them if they heard anything about it. NJ sucks by the Way! Just incase you havent heard!



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Dead [Black Ops]
 
Fud:
You more observant than most. Good thing too, the way things happen around you. Your taking time to analyze the situation was proper.

Your restrained child attempting to get away from an adult is a tough one. Even if the adult is the natural parent, he may be in violation of a restraining order and the child may be justifiably in fear for it's life.

Evaluate as much data as possible and hope you make a good decision.

Sam
 
Dead, Bridgewater Commons is one of the nicer malls in NJ but it just goes to show that nobody is really safe anywhere. I would be interested in hearing more about it as I had to run out to catch my plane. If you hear any more details from your family, please post them.
 
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