ATF - What are you going to do about it?

Dangus

New member
The ATF, its a department that makes no sense at all, why these three things? FUD, that's why. Tabacco kills, Alcohol kills, guns kill. But so do cars, water, fire, rocks, trains, etc. Why don't we have a CWFRTE bureau? The government likes to pat itself on the back and propagate it's own agendas. History shows this being repeatedly the case. People constantly just sit and take whatever the government does to them until someone organizes them. Why, if we are already organized, are we sitting and taking this crap? We let the government crap on our nation with the whole Vietnam fiasco, and look what that did to our nation, we still aren't over it. My question to all of you, is are you going to sit there and let them take away your right as a human being to stand with respect, trust, and security with your fellow man? What are we going to do about the ATF, and how are we going to do it? They have got to go, and I want ideas, I want plans, then I want action. Who's with me?

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
To quote Henry Bowman from "Unintended Consequences": anyone who needs detailed instructions probably shouldn't tackle this problem.

Further, TFL is a very unsecure channel of communications...would you want to broadcast your intentions to the world?

Then again, some ideas are good enough to be shared with all. I just hope they do not start with "1 part nytroglycerine to 2 parts..."
Oleg
 
I have remarked before about the clever way in which the federal government used the Bureau to link guns with two other classical vices such as alcohol and tobacco.

The key to defeating the BATF is to continue to expose their lawlessness with well-documented (non-urban legend) cases.

That is Step 1.

Step 2?

Rick
 
Why those 3 things? The alcohol and tobacco are items that are heavily taxed and regulated. Its also easy to get by the taxes and regulations and sell direct to the public for less than they could buy it with that little stamp on it.

It's no surprise that the ATF is a branch of the TREASURY DEPT. Good old boys in the backwoods are hard to regulate, especially when you give them the option of electing thier own sheriff ;) So obviously you need more Federal control and some LEOs not beholden to the locals to make sure the taxes get paid. More of the same "you don't know what's good for you, we do, and please pay at the front desk on your way out" mentality from your friendly Federal Gubmint.

Firearms and explosives I'm not so sure about. I wonder when they took over these responsibilities? Anyone know the history of the ATF?
 
Maybe this link will help explain who Dingus is (Michael Alexander) and why he says the things he does.
http://www.alcovetech.com/bio.html

As for being concerned about who knows me or where I am, my congressman knows my name, address, was told of my firearms, and that I would not register them, then asked 'What are you going to do about it?' Just say NO! If nobody registers they won't be able to enforce squat.
 
First off Oleg, I don't believe that explosives and guns are necessary to stop the ATF at this point, and I have no interest in killing people when there is no point to it. The ATF must be disbanded though, that's all there is to it. They are illegal, and we should be unilaterally clamouring to have them removed from this government.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
Hey Jeff... you like how I have my muzzle loader in one of my senior pictures? Also I have a sword in another :)


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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
The best plan i saw was an organized shun of all unconstitutional federal employees.

A buddy also wrote up a plan to pay them off.
His idea was since the government seldom reduces itself in size, we could use an early retirement program to pay the target department to go away in 15 years.

dZ
 
I do believe (please correct me if I am wrong) that they trace thier lines back to Elliot Ness and his group.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jack 99:


Firearms and explosives I'm not so sure about. I wonder when they took over these responsibilities? Anyone know the history of the ATF?
[/quote]
The history of the ATF can be found on their website, http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/history.htm



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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
here is THE PLAN:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The plan is simplicity itself. Abolish the BATF. This would drive the
gun prohibitionists insane, and would be a major accomplishment on
levels beyond that of even gun ownership. "But that's impossible" you
think? No, it's easy! Read on.

First, we recognize that the BATF (the old "Bureau of Prohibition") is
not necessary today. All of its tasks can be performed by other
government agencies. It is just a relic from the days of prohibition. I
mean, come on, a special bureau in the Treasury Department to handle
taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, that has police powers? Come
on! It's ridiculous. Even the BATF knows this.

Second, the central problem with getting rid of any government
bureaucracy is that the bureacracy resists. Strongly. In the case of the
BATF, there will be hoards of agents, employees, their families,
businesses that depend upon them, etc., all putting pressure on
Washington to prevent such a terrible thing from happening. This is not
something specific to the BATF, mind you. It happens with all government
bureaucracies. In my lifetime, there has only been one bureacracy in the
US that was eliminated (the CAB, by Reagan).

So the only question is, how to do it? Well, we need a plan that would
get the BATF on our side! In other words, make abolishing the BATF so
appealing to the BATF infrastructure that they actually want it! If they
fight to abolish their own agency, we simply can not lose.

So how do we do that? Pretty simple really. We get Congress to pass a
law that says that, contingent upon the abolishment of the BATF, all
BATF employees will continue to draw a salary, and get all benefits
(health, pension, life insurance, etc.), for the remainder of their
working lives (and of course retire as if they had worked until the
maximum retirement age, thus gaining maximum retirement benefits). And
we also allow those same employees to "double dip:" that is, they can
get another job, even in the Federal Government, and still keep that old
salary and all benefits, on top of what they might make in a new job!

For example, suppose a BATF agent under this plan becomes a washroom
attendant after the BATF is abolished. He would still get paid his old
salary (indexed for inflation, etc., the GAO and OPM is very good at
this), his old health plan, old retirement benefits, etc., as well as
whatever he makes as a washroom attendant, and whatever benefits he
would get there. Or he could decide that the life of a washroom
attendant didn't suit him, and just stay at home and watch Rosie
O'Donnell and collect his check every two weeks.

BATF agents would become the most drooled over people in the world while
this plan was going into effect. Wouldn't you like to get paid two
salaries? Or one salary for doing nothing?

Now, the only drawback to this plan is the cost. But that is negligable
in terms of Federal spending and the benefits received. Eventually, when
the last BATF veteren dies, presumably sometime in the next century, the
plan will end. In the meantime, there will be no BATF, there will be a
gigantic cost savings by folding its functions into other, more
efficient agencies, and we will have stopped the egregious abuse of our
rights at the hands of these (now rich, but what price our rights?)
jackboots.

That's it. Now NO ONE is going to object to such a plan without
revealing themsevles to be either incredibly envious cheapskates (I
admit this goes counter to the American Work Ethic <tm> but then again,
so does banning guns), or total statists. That's the beauty of my little
plan. And remember, if you were a BATF agent and presented with this
plan, you'd be lobbying your butt off to get it, and you'd tell all your
family and friends to start writing letters to get such legistlation
passed.

For once, the BATF would be working FOR us, not AGAINST us. And would be
happy to destroy themselves. Very happy. A good happy ending for
everyone involved, except the gun prohibitionists.

If this is pulled off, the ramefications will ripple through Washington,
and cause a few other effects, but that's another plan.
[/quote]
 
Neal Knox Report

Collector Crackdown Coming

By Neal Knox

WASHINGTON, D.C. (June 10)-There are signs that BATF-the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms-is making, and about to make, a
major new assault against gun show sales. And, with steadily
increasing resources combined with steadily declining numbers of
Federally licensed dealers to "inspect" they're moving more into
the realm of dealer harassment than ever before.

Some of this activity is legitimate-if unwelcome-enforcement of
Federal laws that should never have been passed (which is why I
shudder every time NRA says "enforce existing gun laws," without
discriminating between laws targeting criminal misuse and gun
swaps that most states consider lawful).

But, some "dealer oversight" over-steps BATF's lawful
authority-which is anything but a new phenomenon.

For instance, BATF inspectors have no authority to copy sales
records, but licensed dealers seldom object. Few FFL's can afford
the cost-either the legal expenses or the risk of increased trace
requests and additional inspections.

I recently talked with a dealer who is ready to go to court over
unauthorized record-copying - for he wants to protect the privacy
of his customers, and is properly concerned about being subject to
a civil lawsuit from those customers if he doesn't.

In his case, the BATF agent had spent the better part of a month
copying names, addresses and serial numbers into her laptop-which
probably violates the prohibitions against registration in the
amended Gun Control Act and every BATF appropriations law since I
was NRA-ILA director.

Other dealers have told me they've been subjected to great
increases in the number of costly trace requests, including guns
bought and still possessed by law-abiding citizens.

The owner of one long-lived dealership told me he started getting
an unusual number of trace requests on old purchases. His friendly
agent suggested he could avoid digging into ancient files by
getting a new license, and sending all those old purchase records
to BATF-which he did.

The number of trace requests (without regard to sales volume) is
the phony criteria being used to identify "bad apple" dealers now
subjected to "enhanced enforcement." And traces can be used to cut
off sales under the terms of the S&W-Clinton Administration
agreement.

Just as BATF has pushed the envelope on gun law interpretation, so
have gun collectors and traders-either out of ignorance, confusion
or unwillingness to comply with pointless laws they consider
unconstitutional.

For instance, an FFL I've known for years didn't want me to bother
filling out a Form 4473 on a high-grade rifle I purchased at an
out-of-state gun show.

A resident of a northwestern state showed me a fine U.S. Switch &
Signal M1911A1 he had just bought at a Texas show. When I asked
how he had possession, he "explained" that the GCA's prohibitions
against interstate transfers no longer applied to collector
handguns-and even more think they no longer apply to long guns
bought or received as gifts from individuals.

They do.

Just how much confusion reigns among both dealers and BATF agents
is indicated by an article and editorial in the June 5 Denver
Post. It details the indictment last November of "Trader Jim"
Gowda, an Arvada, Colo., FFL accused of selling eight guns without
obtaining names and addresses, including to a felon and a Wyoming
resident.

But BATF told the newspaper he had sold "thousands" of guns
without paperwork at gun shows in various states, "hundreds" to
"suspected criminals," and completed Form 4473's and NICS checks
on only few.

Gowda says he was selling guns from his personal collection at the
shows, and didn't believe federally licensed dealers had to
document all sales.

Gowda and a partner were indicted in 1978 for dealing without a
license and selling to a non-resident. He received pre-trial
diversion after a guilty plea, and the indictment was dropped.

To "get legal" he obtained his FFL in 1980. In 1990 he was
inspected. In 1996, BATF agents raided his home, seized all but
four of 227 guns, claiming they were "improperly acquired." After
three more years selling at shows, he was indicted in November.

His attorney says Gowda is a victim of a "changing climate" since
the Columbine massacre. BATF's Denver enforcement chief says that
the agency is now focussing on gun show dealers-and,
inferentially, their buyers.

And in Illinois, the attorney general says U.S. House Speaker
Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) is backing his $850,000 request for a
Federal grant for a state "special unit" to investigate and
prosecute "internet and gun show sales."

Heads up!
 
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