ATF ruling 2010-4: Airsoft toys = firearms??
- Thread starter GunLink
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
More specifically, it says an Airsoft M-16 lower that is similar enough to a real M16/AR15 lower that it will fire when a real AR15 upper is attached to it is a firearm.
ATF does have a lot of crazy rulings; but given the current firearms laws, this has a pretty sound basis to it.
ATF does have a lot of crazy rulings; but given the current firearms laws, this has a pretty sound basis to it.
Edward429451
Moderator
I have to disagree and say that no firearms law extant has any sound basis to it whatsoever. This is fundemental thinking.
dogtown tom
New member
Really?
I think firearms laws prohibiting the sale to or possession of firearms by convicted felons, those adjudicated mentally defective, fugitives, drug addicts and illegal aliens are perfectly sound.
So you think those folks should be able to buy guns?
I sure as hell don't.
Edward429451
Moderator
Simple. If they're not fit to be trusted with a gun then keep them locked up away from society. I have no link or hard numbers, but from what I understand, the largest portion of violent crime is done be repeat offenders. If they kept these guys locked up instead of releasing them back onto the street then crime would go down. We don't need gun laws at all, we need the present laws enforced.
If criminals are fit enough to be released back onto the street then they have paid thier debt and should not be disbarred the use of arms. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slipping him a J frame as he is released...then he shouldn't be released.
If criminals are fit enough to be released back onto the street then they have paid thier debt and should not be disbarred the use of arms. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slipping him a J frame as he is released...then he shouldn't be released.
There are convicted felons today whose offense was a misdemeanor several years ago. There are also nonviolent felonies just as there are misdemeanors that involve injury to others.
Lumping all felons in with fugitives, drug addicts, illegal aliens and those adjudicated mentally defective may be an over generalization. But it sure makes a good campaign poster.
Let's move this one to Law & Civil Rights.
Lumping all felons in with fugitives, drug addicts, illegal aliens and those adjudicated mentally defective may be an over generalization. But it sure makes a good campaign poster.
Let's move this one to Law & Civil Rights.
I think we managed to live without national gun laws up until 1934. I don't see that the gun laws have prevented anything except to limit law abiding citizens. Teenage gang members seem to find guns pretty easily even though they are prohibited.
Reading and viewing some of the stories of gangsters back in the 1920s and 1930s BEFORE the NFA, it seems they preferred to steal BARs and tommy guns from police and NG armories rather than purchasing them.
Same as sex offenders, if someone is too dangerous to live in society as a free citizen, then why are they out?
I agree that given the current law, if a toy lower receiver can be readily used as a receiver for a centerfire upper then it should be considered a firearm. BUT, I don't trust that the BATFE is accurately representing how easily this toy does this.
I don't trust an agency that would adamantly standby their decision to label a receiver jerry rigged with string and rubber bands a machine gun. Are they coming after my doug fir 2x4s next because they could be "easily modified" into a configuration that could act as a receiver?
Reading and viewing some of the stories of gangsters back in the 1920s and 1930s BEFORE the NFA, it seems they preferred to steal BARs and tommy guns from police and NG armories rather than purchasing them.
Same as sex offenders, if someone is too dangerous to live in society as a free citizen, then why are they out?
I agree that given the current law, if a toy lower receiver can be readily used as a receiver for a centerfire upper then it should be considered a firearm. BUT, I don't trust that the BATFE is accurately representing how easily this toy does this.
I don't trust an agency that would adamantly standby their decision to label a receiver jerry rigged with string and rubber bands a machine gun. Are they coming after my doug fir 2x4s next because they could be "easily modified" into a configuration that could act as a receiver?
Wildalaska
Moderator
Really? Ever hear of Peter Von Frantzius?
Warm Regards
WildinterestingfellowAlaska ™©2002-2010
I am also in the boat of NO LAWS about gun ownership etc. is worth a hoot!
And as Bud stated, not all felonies should restrict gun ownership.
For one example... A 2nd offense DUI is a felony in Fla.
And to muddle in the water deeper... You can be found GUILTY WITHOUT HARD EVIDENCE!!!
You blow UNDER the legal limit but can be determined to be "PRESUMABLY DRUNK"
So I don't think too highly of the generalization of FELON=NO GUNS!!!
And the felon can own a 6 shooter of the "antique" BP variety anyway!
Brent
And as Bud stated, not all felonies should restrict gun ownership.
For one example... A 2nd offense DUI is a felony in Fla.
And to muddle in the water deeper... You can be found GUILTY WITHOUT HARD EVIDENCE!!!
You blow UNDER the legal limit but can be determined to be "PRESUMABLY DRUNK"
So I don't think too highly of the generalization of FELON=NO GUNS!!!
And the felon can own a 6 shooter of the "antique" BP variety anyway!
Brent
I agree about the large majority of firearms-related laws making me want to :barf:
As another members touched on, though, I can see how the current revision of gun laws might be able to classify sample #1 as a firearm since the lower receiver is the serial numbered (therefore, the "firearm") part of an AR, and the lower of sample #1 can supposedly be fitted to any AR upper and be a functioning rifle.
I think the story on sample #2 is a little far fetched though. Drilling holes to hold an FCG? Come on. Anyone with a dremel tool can head down to Lowes and get a 2x6 and waller out the middle, drill some holes, drop in an AR or M16 FCG and stick it under an upper and it will go bang.
I think that by drilling the holes, the agent manufactured a firearm. Wonder if he's got an 07 FFL.
As another members touched on, though, I can see how the current revision of gun laws might be able to classify sample #1 as a firearm since the lower receiver is the serial numbered (therefore, the "firearm") part of an AR, and the lower of sample #1 can supposedly be fitted to any AR upper and be a functioning rifle.
I think the story on sample #2 is a little far fetched though. Drilling holes to hold an FCG? Come on. Anyone with a dremel tool can head down to Lowes and get a 2x6 and waller out the middle, drill some holes, drop in an AR or M16 FCG and stick it under an upper and it will go bang.
I think that by drilling the holes, the agent manufactured a firearm. Wonder if he's got an 07 FFL.
Leave it to Wild to take me literally and come up with one gun dealer who sold to the gangs in CHICAGO. I am shocked! If I tried hard enough I could even come up with an example of a pleasant gun shop. (That is light hearted humor among friends BTW).
This spurious example does not invalidate the point that criminals and crazies can easily get guns whether they are permitted to or not, and that gun laws are overall not effective in reducing crime.
Most of the gangsters back then had already been wiped out before the 1934 NFA was enacted. Thus proving that the solution to crime is to put away criminals, not restrict law abiding citizens.
This spurious example does not invalidate the point that criminals and crazies can easily get guns whether they are permitted to or not, and that gun laws are overall not effective in reducing crime.
Most of the gangsters back then had already been wiped out before the 1934 NFA was enacted. Thus proving that the solution to crime is to put away criminals, not restrict law abiding citizens.
Wildalaska
Moderator
That one dealer is probably heart and soul of the reason we have the NFA
Sincerely
WildigotachicagotypewriterforvalentinesdayAlaska ™©2002-2010
It can look as much or as little like a real firearm as you want, cosmetic features should have no bearing on the determination.
When you have to drill holes, install parts, etc., etc. to get it to fire...it's not a firearm.
With the lower removed, the firing pin on an AR/M16 BCG, although recessed, is exposed. Does this mean that anything one can jam up in there to hit the firing pin hard enough to set off the primer is a "firearm?" Is the thing below a "firearm" because you can hold it under an upper, pull the trigger and make it go bang?
What if you drill holes in ply-wood to mount the FCG in? What if you add a handle?
That wasn't the type of FUNDamental thinking I thought you meant.
I was thinking more revenue generation through fines and higher taxes to FUND all the agents, lawyers, etc. if they decide to push the issue with the hundreds of thousands of these things that are on the market.
The ATF says a post 1986 manufactured auto sear is a machine gun. All by itself. If they can say (and get away with) that a small oddly shaped piece of metal is, all by itself legally a machine gun, then they can say a toy part (suitably modified) is one also.
They say a lot of crap. Our problem is judges (and worse) juries believe them.
They say a lot of crap. Our problem is judges (and worse) juries believe them.
Don't forget that metal tubes and even soda bottles (if attached or intended to be attached to firearms) can qualify as suppressors, which are regulated as NFA items.
Many firearms laws and regs make no sense or are ineffectual, but I don't see a reason why this airsoft ruling is any more arbitrary than previous laws or ATF regs.
Start regulating arbitrary parts of firearms as if they're firearms and it's no surprise we end up with rulings like this.
Many firearms laws and regs make no sense or are ineffectual, but I don't see a reason why this airsoft ruling is any more arbitrary than previous laws or ATF regs.
Start regulating arbitrary parts of firearms as if they're firearms and it's no surprise we end up with rulings like this.