ATF requires I 'maintain a domicile'?

[Blackbook]

I went to Cabella's yesterday to trade a gun and put it towards a Sig p320. After arranging the trade, finishing form 4473, picking out a new holster and a couple hundred rounds of 9mm, all that was left was for a manager to double check the paperwork, swipe my debt card and I would be out the door.

The manager refused the sale because she didn't like the address on my driver's license.

I've been a 'traveler' for years due to my job, I do not maintain a domicile; ie I do not have a regular apartment or house to which I return every day. The address on my driver's licence, Home of Record with the Army, the address on my carry permits, fishing permits, car registration...literally everything...is a UPS store in my home city where I receive mail.

The Cabella's manager claimed that the ATF requires me to report where they can physically go to find me, where to send a cop if they need to. So firstly, no such place exists. Where I sleep and do laundry will change weekly. Secondly, having don my own research on this, I can find no such requirement from the ATF. The ATF requires that I show the FFL a valid ID and have a current physical address, which I do have and did show. I can find nothing from the ATF stating they require a gun purchaser to 'maintain a domicile'.

My local DMV has many licensed drivers who are travelers or RV'ers and use a UPS store, RV park office or similar place as their 'physical address'. DMV requires, in addition to the usual 2 pieces of mail, a notarized affidavit of residency, in order to list such an address on an ID or license. I've bought, sold and pawned several guns since obtaining my present UPS store address and this has never been a problem. While I would like to believe the Cabella's manager was simply misinformed, this has me worried.

Any information you have on this issue would be most helpful.

 

[natman]

According to this ATF letter to FFLs, a P.O. Box is not acceptable:

The residence address required on Form 4473 must be sufficient to identify the physical location of the purchaser's residence in the event the firearm is the subject of a trace request. For these reasons, Form 4473 states that a P.O. Box is not an acceptable residence address.

The 4473 system depends on a person being a resident of a certain state, and I don't see how to resolve that in your case. I had a similar problem when I resided abroad. I'd suggest that you contact ATF directly:

fipb@atf.gov

Get their advice in writing and follow it.

Best of luck.

 

[Blackbook]

According to this ATF letter to FFLs, a P.O. Box is not acceptable:



The 4473 system depends on a person being a resident of a certain state, and I don't see how to resolve that in your case. I had a similar problem when I resided abroad. I'd suggest that you contact ATF directly:

fipb@atf.gov

Get their advice in writing and follow it.

Best of luck.

It's not a P.O. box, though. The noterized contract with UPS states it's a "phisical adress" and they're the ones who gave me the afidavit of residency for DMV. The IRS has been accepting this adress since I've had it, too.

Strangely enough, some 'travelers' use the adress of a friend or relative, and while that would seem ligitomat to an FFL who serched the adress, the perchiser still doesn't live there.

My consern is that this would somehow make the transaction illegal.

 

[44 AMP]

I can't access the linked letter (my computer says security settings)..

So, I will as this, do you know when the ATF decided a PO box was not acceptable?

For decades, my address was a PO box on a rural route. It was a real physical house, and I lived there, and didn't move around. Never had any issues with any FFL about that, ever.

A few years ago, the county (state??) came through and renumbered everything, so my address changed to a # and road name. I never moved, but my address changed.

It is a bit of a grey area, I believe the ATF rule of no PO boxes is just that, a rule of their organization, not the law itself.

There is always some manner of approved exception, but only the ATF can tell you what that is, TODAY. The ATF has a long history of changing their minds. What ever they tell you is ok, get it in writing, with a date, and a real person's name and ATF position on it.

That is your only proof you were in compliance at the time, should they later change their minds...

Good Luck

 

[Frank Ettin]

The fundamental problem is the under federal law one may buy a handgun only in his State of residence. An FFL transferring a handgun to a person must be able to establish that the transferee is a resident of the State in which the transaction is taking place. "State of residence" for the purposes of this federal law is defined as (27 CFR 478.11):

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.​

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.​

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.​

Example 4.

A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.​

So a transferee needs to furnish satisfactory identification to the FFL allowing the FFL to be able to establish the transferee's State of residence. In the ATF publication, Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide (ATF P 5300.15), describes satisfactory identification as follows (pg 6, emphasis in bold in original, emphasis in italics added):

General Identification Requirements

You MUST verify the identity of each non-licensee buyer by examining the person’s identification document(s) prior to transferring a firearm. A proper “identification document” is:

1. A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the person;
   
   
2. A document that was made or issued by or under the authority of the U.S. Government, a State or local government, or a foreign government;
   
   
3. A document that is of a type commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

Common examples of acceptable identification documents are a valid driver’s license or a valid State identification card issued in lieu of a driver’s license. Social security cards are not acceptable because they do not contain a residence address, date of birth, or photograph. However, a firearms buyer may be identified by any combination of documents which together contain all of the required information (as long as all the documents are Government issued): name, residence address, photograph, and date of birth.

Note that one element of satisfactory identification is that it must establish the transferee's residence address. Arguably without a residence address the transferee's State of residence isn't established. A post office box or a box at a private mailbox service isn't a residence address -- one doesn't live there.

I'm not sure what the solution might be. Perhaps it would be possible for find an alternate way for the OP to establish that the he is a resident (as defined for the purposes of federal law) of the State in which he is buying the handgun.

Any proposed alternative would need to be acceptable to the FFL. An FFL is probably not going to risk his license and livelihood if he's not confident he can convince the ATF that he exercised due diligence to establish a transferee's State of residence. Therefore, as a practical matter any such alternative will possibly need to be accepted by ATF.

Earlier this year the Federal District Court for the Northern District of Texas found certain provision of federal law unconstitutional insofar as they barred a transfer of a handgun by an FFL to a non-resident (Mance v. Holder, 4:14-cv-00539-O, 2015). The status of that ruling is unclear right now. It almost certainly is being appealed to the Fifth Circuit. Any relief it might possibly offer the OP, if the District Court is upheld, is most likely far in future.

 

[Banger357]

I used to manage the gun counter at a similar large chain store (not Cabelas) and I would have had to shut down that sale as well. Frank summed it up well- your physical address must be a residence, where you reside. Most large firearm retailers will err on the side of caution because they’d much rather lose your sale than lose their FFL, and the ATF is certainly capable of nit-picking things to that level should they so choose. A big name like that is going to be more of a stickler for things like that because they have a lot more to lose and they are approximately 32 billion times (by my estimation) more likely to be audited than the owner of Joe’s Boom Sticks upriver from you.

It sucks that you got shut down for that and while we all know that the point of the 4473 is to make sure the person purchasing isn’t up to anything fishy, not to make life difficult for people with less-common living arrangements. But unfortunately all branches of the law enforce the specific verbiage of the law, not the spirit of it, so you’d likely get similar results at most major gun retailers.

FYI a lot of sellers have a “what I don’t know won’t hurt me” attitude. For example, a lot of people in their 20’s use their parents’ address as their permanent address as they tend to move around a lot of college or whatever. If they don’t specifically tell us that they don’t actually live there, we aren’t going to question it. We verify the license is valid and what is written on the 4473 matches the ID. Sellers are people too and trust me that we spend a lot more time rolling our eyes at the stupid hoops that need to be jumped through even more than you do. We also know the difference between when something seems to be shady and when some mostly arbitrary semantics are making life difficult for people who are perfectly within their rights to purchase. We are legally obligated to shut down a sale if we know or have reason to suspect everything is not on the up, but being psychic is not a requirement to sell guns. Just something to keep in mind for future purchases.

 

[Doyle]

Blackbook, please clarify something. The title of the post is "ATF requires ...". Did the background check fail or did the Cabelas manager simply refuse to call it in?

If it was the Cabelas manager, how did she know that your DL address wasn't a domicile? When I had one of those boxes, the address simply read "XXX HWY 12 W, #253". That reads exactly the same way as an apartment address.

 

[Tom Servo]

Did the background check fail or did the Cabelas manager simply refuse to call it in?

It wouldn't cause a failure on the NICS check. Most likely, the manager asked if it was his current residence address, and that's where the sale stopped.

One of my headaches at the counter used to be the fact that seemingly nobody in my area stayed at the same address for long, and they never updated their ID. FFL's have been advised that the address on the ID must match the residence address.

As far as having no fixed abode, I'm really not sure how that works. Truckers, longshoremen, and several other occupations have that issue. Are residence address and physical address the same thing?

 

[44 AMP]

so, it appears no guns for the homeless, either...

Or would 3rd St Gospel Mission be good enough???

 

[Blackbook]

I'm not sure what the solution might be. Perhaps it would be possible for find an alternate way for the OP to establish that the he is a resident (as defined for the purposes of federal law) of the State in which he is buying the handgun.

An afidavit of residency. The previous year's tax filing. W2s. Certified copies of certain court documents. A person's driver's license has to be from their state of residence.

The problem wasn't proving which state was my state of residence.

 

[dogtown tom]

Tom Servo ....FFL's have been advised that the address on the ID must match the residence address.

Advised by who? The Form 4473 has Question 20b. for the dealer to record alternate documentation if the ID does not show the current residence address.

44 AMP so, it appears no guns for the homeless, either...

Or would 3rd St Gospel Mission be good enough???

If the buyer can provide a government issued document showing his name and current address at the mission............yes.

Blackbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin View Post
I'm not sure what the solution might be. Perhaps it would be possible for find an alternate way for the OP to establish that the he is a resident (as defined for the purposes of federal law) of the State in which he is buying the handgun.

An afidavit of residency. The previous year's tax filing. W2s. Certified copies of certain court documents.

The problem wasn't proving which state was my state of residence.

An affidavit will not meet the requirement of a government issued document. Neither would your tax return. Neither would a W2. (neither is "issued" by the government)

Surprisingly the following WILL work:
-traffic ticket
-DMV registration
-hunting license
-utility bill from a government entity
-letter from your city, state, federal government.

A person's driver's license has to be from their state of residence.

Not true. Members of the armed services may hold a drivers license from their home state, but reside in another state.

 

[Blackbook]

Not true. Members of the armed services may hold a drivers license from their home state, but reside in another state.

Yeah, I'm currently in so I know how that works. Residency is not determined by where you literaly reside. Yes I know what the definitions of the words are but we're talking about law, not logic and common sense.

A soldier's home state is their state of residence. The Army calls your "home of record". That's the state he pays taxes to, that's where his traveling vouchers are based on, that's where his body is sent.

Residency doesn't mean one resides there. It's a legal concept, not a literaly true and actual fact of being.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A soldier's home state is their state of residence. The Army calls your "home of record"....

No, for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 what matters is the applicable definition set out in the ATF regulations (27 CFR 478.11). I quoted that definition in post 5.

So for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 the State of residence for someone on active duty in the Armed Services it the State in which his permanent duty station is located.

 

[Gary L. Griffiths]

I ran into this problem when I was trying to register my new motorhome when I was a full-time RVer. My mailing address was a UPS Store, which was listed with the state as a business address, so they wouldn't accept it as my residential address. They asked where my home was now, and I told them, "In your parking lot." To make a long story short, they finally asked where I had stayed the previous night, and I told them Space #33 in the Oakland Park Corps of Engineers campground in Lake Dallas. Well, that became my "official" address, and is still on my driver's license even though the campground closed more than a decade ago. ATF accepts it like clockwork. The only question they seem to ask the dealer, is "What, HIM again?"

 

[pete2]

I used to sell guns, you must have a permanent address, not a P.O. box or such. The address must match your drivers lic. It's the law.

 

[Blackbook]

I used to sell guns, you must have a permanent address, not a P.O. box or such. The address must match your drivers lic. It's the law.

The UPS store adress is on my drivers licence. The UPS store adress is also on all my carry permits, tax forms, etc. It is not a PO box. A UPS store is not a PO for it's boxes to then be PO boxes.

 

[Frank Ettin]

he UPS store adress is on my drivers licence. The UPS store adress is also on all my carry permits, tax forms, etc. It is not a PO box. A UPS store is not a PO for it's boxes to then be PO boxes.

Whatever it is, it is not your residence address. You don't live in your UPS store box.

If you are active duty military, the State in which your permanent duty station is located is your State of residence. In that case, a copy of your orders showing your permanent duty station would suffice.

Otherwise, you're in a pickle. You will need to come up with government issued identification the FFL believes will be acceptable to the ATF to establish your State of residence as defined in the ATF regulations I cited and quoted in post 5. Clearly the ATF is looking for government issued identification showing a residence address. If an FFL accepts anything else, he'll have some explaining to do if your transaction comes up during an audit.

It is a violation of federal law for an FFL to transfer a handgun to someone he "knows or has reasonable cause to believe" is not a resident of the State in which the transaction is taking place. And an FFL doesn't have to sell you a gun. Many will pass up a sale if there is any doubt or if things aren't exactly the way they like it.

From the FFL's perspective he'd be sticking his neck out to sell you a gun. I'm not surprised that an FFL demurred.

Given what appears to be a renaissance of a nomadic lifestyle, some provisions of the GCA68 seem rather out of date. Some of these issue might be vulnerable to challenge in court on constitutional grounds. Or perhaps the time is ripe for a political solution.

But until the law gets fixed, either in the courts or in Congress, we're stuck with what we have.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you are active duty military, the State in which your permanent duty station is located is your State of residence. In that case, a copy of your orders showing your permanent duty station would suffice.

Frank beat me to it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Frank Ettin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbook
...A soldier's home state is their state of residence. The Army calls your "home of record"....

No, for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 what matters is the applicable definition set out in the ATF regulations (27 CFR 478.11). I quoted that definition in post 5.

So for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968 the State of residence for someone on active duty in the Armed Services it the State in which his permanent duty station is located.

Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may be able to have two states of residence:
1. The actual address where they make their home.
2. The state where their permanent duty station is located.

Gary L. Griffiths ......Well, that became my "official" address, and is still on my driver's license even though the campground closed more than a decade ago.

If you do not actually reside at that address, you committed a federal crime every time you filled out a Form 4473.

ATF accepts it like clockwork. The only question they seem to ask the dealer, is "What, HIM again?"

Wrong. ATF isn't contacted during a firearm purchase, it's the FBI NICS. And your address is not reported to them during the background check.

You need to stop posting and read what was written in this thread (as well as the instructions on the 4473) before you attempt to buy another firearm.

 

[natman]

The UPS store adress is on my drivers licence. The UPS store adress is also on all my carry permits, tax forms, etc. It is not a PO box. A UPS store is not a PO for it's boxes to then be PO boxes.

It may not be in a Post Office, but it's still a place where you have mail sent for you to pick up. You don't live in it. The guns aren't kept there. It's a PO box in the eyes of the ATF. More directly, it's a PO box in the eyes of the gun shop manager who refused your 4473.

You're going to have to decide whether you want your issue solved or not. Splitting hairs over the definition of PO box is going to be a dead end. What you need is a way to get a gun sold to you even though your address is a PO box.

It may be possible to get a variance from the ATF. In this letter to FFLs, dated June 7, 2007, there's a procedure mentioned for just such a situation. A lot could have changed in the last 8 years, so again I suggest that you contact ATF and find out what the latest policy is on your issue.