Ask this

From the Sept. 16 Orange County Register (yes, Southern CA):

Potentially lifesaving question often goes unasked by parents

The question never occurred to John Johannessen back in 1997.

It seemed rude to ask that of another parent, even though their children played together at the other family's home.

But had the Irvine resident asked it, things might be dramatically different today.

His only daughter might not have that jagged, one-inch scar on her right cheek.

His marriage might not have broken up.

And his family might not have ended up on tabloid TV shows or become advocates for gun safety.

Had Johannessen only asked, 12-year-old Shanelle might not have been shot and nearly killed by a girlfriend.

The question?

"Do you have any guns in your home?"

Had Johannessen asked it, he might have learned that the girl's mother's fiancé kept a 9 mm pistol in his briefcase.

And had he known that, he wouldn't have let Shanelle go to their house on that day in July 1997, when the girl took the gun out and pulled the trigger because she thought it wasn't loaded.

To many, the question is a breach of etiquette. Only 30 percent of parents dare to ask.

But a new campaign began recently to make the question acceptable.

Dubbed the Asking Saves Kids (ASK) campaign, the drive is sponsored by PAX, a group fighting gun violence. The American Academy of Pediatrics and the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development also support it.

Four out of every 10 homes with children have guns in them, many of them left unlocked and loaded, according to the ASK campaign. More than 300 children are killed in gun accidents each year.

In Orange County, 13 children were killed in accidental shootings between 1991 and 1998, coroner's figures show. None has been killed since then.

Guns need to be stored where children can't get them, the campaign says. The ammo should be locked up separately if kids are present.

The ASK Campaign, which is aligned with gun opponents, gets support from an unlikely source.

"The NRA doesn't have a problem with that," said Trish Gregory, a spokeswoman for the National Rifle Association. "We certainly don't see any problem with a parent talking to another parent."

The NRA advocates that firearms should always be stored where children can't get them - either in a gun safe or with a locking device.

Shanelle Johannessen turns 16 on Monday, recovered but facing more plastic surgery.

She speaks at schools about the dangers of guns. Her father formed an advocacy group, Stop Our Shootings.

And he never hesitates to ask the question.

"Just because you don't have a gun," Johannessen said, "it doesn't mean that your kid won't get shot."

For more on the ASK campaign, see www.askingsaveskids.com.

Jeff Collins, Register Columnist
jcollins@freedom.notes.com
------------------------------


My response:


Ask this.


The number one killer of children is car accidents. Ask your neighbor if they drive a safe care…if they are sober…what their accident record is…how many moving violations they got in the past year.

The number two killer is drowning. For children under 3, more of them drown in buckets each year than are killed by firearms. Ask your neighbor about buckets left unattended. For all children, ask about unattended pools.

HIV/AIDS was the eighth-leading cause of death in 1996. Ask your neighbor if anyone is HIV/AIDS-positive at the house.

Ask your neighbor if there are any registered (or unregistered) sex-offenders in the house or neighborhood.

If you ask all of these questions, your child will be safer. However, your child probably won’t have many friends.

Don’t forget to ask one last set of questions. Ask if the neighbor is a disarmist (traitor) that is unfamiliar and paranoid about firearms. Ask them if they are trying to disarm the population of the United States. Ask them if they have ever read the Bill of Rights. Ask them…you get the idea.
------------------

I probably should've left off the last part, but I couldn't resist.
------------------
Next response by Jeff:

The NRA agreed with the ASK campaign.
------------------

My response:
According to your article, one woman from the NRA said she did not have a problem with it. That is not the same as its 4 million members agreeing to it. That is not the same as the 80 million gun owners in this country agreeing to it. As you guessed, I do not agree with it. Also, the NRA would be badly perceived if it said the idea of talking was bad.

I notice that you forgot to mention in your article that HUD is the same agency that is suing the gun manufacturers in this country. It’s not a surprise that they would support anything against guns.

This may come as a surprise to you, but guns are not evil. Potentially dangerous?…absolutely. Why not support the NRA’s gun safety programs? Why not have gun safety classes in school? There is no reason to start additional paranoia.

How would you feel if a friend or neighbor started asking you if you were a:
1) pervert
2) drug user
3) convicted felon
4) bad credit risk
5) unclean person
6) etc.

I believe you would be offended. You would think that you are a responsible adult with children. If your home is safe enough for your kids, then it might be safe for your neighbor’s kids.

Why focus on guns? You even said there were no deaths since 1998 in Orange County.

Don’t you realize that in the past, kids brought guns with them to school every day? They would shoot before and after school. It’s only recently that a few kids are shooting in school. It’s not the guns. It’s the people. Find out why some people are different and try to change them.

By the way, I too like to feel that I am a reasonable, responsible citizen. I’m just tired of the “guns are evil, guns are bad” mentality that most of the media spits out on a daily basis.

I do appreciate your response. Good luck with your next column.
----------------------
His response:

Fine. So now I have one man who disagrees with it.
Thank you for your comments.
----------------------

If anyone else wants to disagree with him, feel free to send him a cordial response. At the moment, he thinks it’s just me.
 
Maybe the ASK program should ask if the neighbors have a certified life guard for their swimming pool?

If it saves just one life...

For the Children!
 
Even though I don't have children, I'm developing a checklist for my friends who do, and also for myself if I ever have a family. It's all about keeping our kids safe...

1. Do you have a swimming pool?
2. Do you have a stove?
3. Do you have steps?
4. Do you have a bathtub/shower?
5. Do you have household chemicals, cleaners, paints, etc.?
6. Do you have knives?
7. Do you have forks?
8. Do you have rope?
9. Do you have lamps?
10. Do you have screwdrivers or other household tools?
11. Do you have medications of ANY kind?
12. Do you have dogs?
13. Do you have cats?
14. Do you have any other kind of pet?
15. Do you have matches or lighters?
16. Do you have chairs?
17. Do you have a fireplace?
18. Do you have a television?
19. Do you have a computer with internet service?
20. Do you have fatty foods?
21. Do you have caffeinated beverages?
22. Do you have foods with preservatives?
23. Do you have foods treated with chemicals?
24. Do you have irriadiated foods?
25. Do you have bicycles?
26. Do you have a car?
27. Do you have skateboards?
28. Do you have baseball bats, ski poles, lacrosse sticks, etc.?
29. Do you have reading material not suitable for a child?
30. Do you have waxed hardwood floors?

I need some help adding to this list, everyone. We need to keep our kids as safe as possible...

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Aren't the media just so informed! They know everything about firearms and laws when they do just one story on it it seems. Keeping the children safe...come on! If I wanted to keep my child safe I wouldn't let them out of the house! If does bring up a minor dilemma of gun safety. People need to be aware of it. I definitely do NOT agree with this article but we do need to be responsible for the way we store and handle our guns in our homes. People that do not and make stupid mistakes and children accidentally killing themselves doesn't add to the pro-gun band wagon!

-------
Remember to treat a man like a million dollars but at the same time secretly have a plan to kill him in the back of your mind!
 
Sorry, Anti-disarmist, but I must respectfully disagree with you. You certainly have the right to get PO'd if someone asks you a question that you don't appreciate, but if asking a few questions can help to keep my little girl safe, I'm going to ask it. If you get PO'd about it, that's too bad, but I can’t control your reaction. I’m not real comfortable being on the same side of the fence as PAX, AAP and HUD, but if we can’t even ask other gun owners how they store their guns, how can we be responsible parents?

I have asked this question to people, and it is very hard to do. But just because someone asks you if you have guns, doesn’t mean that they are a traitor to the Constitution! :rolleyes:

The first time that I asked someone that, it turned out that they were a total anti. I was dropping my (four-years-old at the time) daughter off for the afternoon at a friend’s house and we heard a couple of gunshots in the woods in back. I asked the mother if her husband was hunting in the woods. She said. "No way! We don’t have any guns." I let her know that it wouldn’t have bothered me if they did, and told her that my daughter, "...is educated as to what to do if she sees a gun." She agreed that was good. I didn’t push the issue, I just let her know that I wasn’t against people having guns and that I believed in educating my kids, not leaving them ignorant.

This past summer, I was dropping my (now six-year old) daughter off at a friend of my wife’s house for a birthday party. I took her in and was going to ask the father if he had any guns, when I spied an old Mosin-Nagant leaning in the corner near the fireplace. My question was answered without having to ask it! I asked him if I could take a look at it. He said ‘sure’ and he and I talked about rifles for about 10 minutes before I left. He assured me during our conversation that both of his kids were ‘gun-proofed’ and that his other guns were safely stored.

My big problem with being ‘against’ asking about guns in the home is the fact that guns *can* be dangerous if used or stored improperly. Same story with knives, matches, bleach, etc. If all gun owners were as responsible as the people on this board, we wouldn’t have the gun-grabber problems that we have now. The problem is that just like half of all drivers are below average in skill and safety, also half of all gun owners are below average in skill and safety.

It comes down to personal responsibility, not blind trust. Just because one man’s house is safe for him and his, doesn’t make it safe for me and mine. I am the sole judge of that. The only way that I can be absolutely *sure* of that is to check it for myself. Sometimes even asking isn’t enough. You've got to get a 'feel' for whether another parent is responsible. I’m not saying that I would demand to inspect everybody’s house that my kids go into, but I will not stop asking these questions just because some people may perceive them as invasive. That is nothing more than P.C. B.S.

Personally, if someone asked *me* the question, I'd be happy to tell them, "Yes I do have guns. Would you like to see a couple? I don't mind opening the safe."

Comments? :)


------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website


[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited September 22, 2000).]
 
Gee ... here's a radical idea - John Johannessen could have actually trained his daughter how to behave around firearms.

But, of course, this would create even more guilt for John when he realized that this training was something he should have done long, long ago.

Nah, not important right? After all, what were the odds that his child would encounter a firearm during her lifetime ...

Regards from AZ
 
BluesMan;

I agree with you. One of my customers has a PAX poster in her cubicle something to the effect of 'Does the house your kid is playing in have a gun - This is REAL BAD Don't associate with those kind of people'. However I don't mind being asked - and I keep my guns kid-proof. Some of the other posts on this topic have pointed out some good responses. The bottom line is to watch out for the mentality/personality of the parents and the playmates. A responsible gun-owner should be much prefferred over a child-molester, unfortunately some people don't seem to understand that. Might be an interesting survey for HCI to run.
 
I can't see any harm in asking, especially when an affirmative answer might make a new shooting buddy! I believe a lawyer would add the question of insurance to the above list.
As far as someone coming into my place, if they have know me for a while, they already know. If they are new to my place, I have a simple introduction to my apartment that goes something like, "if you see a gun in this place - IT'S LOADED." Now if strange kids are involved, the guns get out of reach and the kids are under constant watch.
 
I am a little confused that that article ran in the O.C. Register. I will have to give them a call. It is my local paper and unlike the L.A. Times (Commies), The Register tends to be very Liberterian. In fact they run Pro-Gun editorials all the time.
 
Hey Mike - You might expand your list of keeping the kids safe to ask it they will be playing any (1998 stats):
basketball - nearly 200,000 children ages 5 to 14 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for injuries
football - 159,000 injuries treated playground equipment 230,000 injuries treated
trampolines - 75,000 injuries treated
softball - 26,000 injuries treated
baseball - 91,000 injuries treated

and for those MMM soccer Moms - 77,500 injuries were treated in emergency rooms.


And the list goes on - just think parents actually sign up their kids for these and go watch them. Ironic.

Statistics from National Safekids website.
 
Bluesman--How do you think other gun owners stored their guns rifles and pistols in the 30's before triggerlocks were even thought of on the national scene.
Ive heard our crime rate especially where children was concerned was a good bit smaller than what it is today.
When do you think the liberal are going to stop pushing gun safety on us and telling us were unsafe ...easy
when our guns are nearly impossible to get to.
Some new guns have 3 safeties, add a trigger lock put that gun in your safe.
NOw add wired home invader with crowbar who just grabbed your largest kitchen knife.
Your kids are safe from your guns arent they?
Just asking I know you dont mind.

And yes when you have as many guns as me theirs a place for storage I agree but I wnat to makes sure everyone KEEPS in mind what direction their going in when they follow the lead of the anti's.

I was taught to shoot at 10.Every weekend when I went to my grandfathers at his house or shop I could see his shotgun sitting out with a box of shells next to it.
But then their are those OTHER children.

I think policemen should have trigger locks on their guns 24 hours a day.
Why?
2 weeks ago in memphis TN an officer was transporting a shotgun from his vehicle to the precint and shot himself in the leg.
Yes with a 12 guague.I know OUCH!

This is a result of not asking the right questions Im cetian of it and of we as a nation of gunowners not practicing safety.
Its always fun to punish the masses by the actions of a few idiots or criminals isnt it?
Or simply blacklist them as being just as bad and thus a menace that need to be controlled by federal regulation.
www.gunowners.org www.ccops.org www.citizensofamerica.org
 
There is a problem with this question. It violates your privacy. I am not about to give an inventory of my posessions to a neighbor who may blab it to even more people.

A gun can be dangerous in the hands of a dangerous person, but it can also be worth $700 or more. I am not going to tell someone about small valuable objects in my home.

How would you feel if someone asked if your wife had any diamond jewelry?

Not only that, but if you don't have a gun, you're advertising your vulnerability to violent criminals. Maybe this parent isn't a problem, but the 20 people he may talk to might be.
 
No, Ruger45, I don’t mind you asking, that’s what this forum is all about. :)

Obviously gun owners in the 1930s didn’t use trigger locks, and I agree that the crime rate was probably lower in regard to children. Are you suggesting that trigger locks cause crime? ;)

I don’t like the B.S. that the liberals are pushing on us any more than you do, but what do you have against basic firearm safety? Regardless of who’s pushing it, if it is sound advice, shouldn’t we heed it?

As far as your home invader scenario, check your email. I don’t care to share my tactical preparations on a public forum. But I don’t mind you asking. :)

Ruger45, you said, "...we as a nation of gunowners [are] not practicing safety." You are absolutely correct. This is the crux of the debate, I think. We should be self-policing; don’t you agree? No federal mandates on ‘safe storage.’ Now, if you don’t ask about how other people store their guns, how else are you going to find out that your neighbor keeps a loaded revolver on his bathroom vanity? Send your six year-old over to find out? Ask him! This will give you the chance to educate the ignorant SOB. Of course if he has no kids and your kids don’t go over there, don’t bother him. Personal responsibility and personal judgment.

The other problem is, if someone who we gun owners consider an ‘anti’ suggests something that is otherwise plausible, (like asking about the safety of a neighbor’s home) we automatically discount it because of the source. We are gun-shy because of terms they have used in the past, such as ‘common sense’ and ‘reasonable.’ When something comes along that *really is* common sense and reasonable, we blast it because of the source. It is perfectly understandable, but does this make sense? Would you attack this idea if it came from the NRA? (Oops! Bad example.) ;) If it came from the GOA? What other suggestions do you have to assure yourself that a neighbor’s house is safe for your kid, other than a visit and asking a few questions? I’m interested in suggestions from everyone.

Ruger45 also said, "Its always fun to punish the masses by the actions of a few idiots or criminals isnt it?"

Obviously sarcasm, but your point is taken. This is a larger problem than just how this ‘question scenario’ applies to gun owners. This is a problem that eats away at our personal liberty more and more each day. We have become a nation that loves protective laws. We like the ‘no-smoking’ signs in restaurants and airplanes, we like mandatory baby car seats and speed limits, and some people even like the idea of banning questions that might violate privacy, or make somebody upset! This sounds like more P.C. B.S. to me.

As far as safe storage and asking questions, I say, "to each his own." You make the decision for you and I’ll make it for me. I certainly don’t think that there’s anything wrong with asking a question that directly affects my children. If you don’t like the question, don’t answer it. This way, I remain free to ask or not to ask, and you remain free to answer or not answer.
 
I guess what bothers me the most about the "Ask" logic is that once again the focus is on the evil gun. There is no formal campaign against buckets, knives, baseball bats, bleach, etc. But when it comes to guns, everyone is more than willing to create an organization and keep guns at the top of the priority list.

As you all said, guns are just one of a hundred things that can hurt a kid. We all try to train our kids to be responsible. I just don't want to have the schools focus on gun paranoia.

In Kalifornia, my main concern is with people (perverts, AIDS-carriers, TB-infected friends, etc.). My kids can handle evil objects.
 
Bluesman,

I think the problem is that this campaign is not about asking so that you can insure gun safety (self-policing, as you mentioned).

"And had he known that, he wouldn't have let Shanelle go to their house on that day in July 1997..."

This is about, "Ask, so you can determine if they are evil people (gun lovers) who you do not want yourself or your children to be around, since they are dangerous."

The NRA seems to accept it as a safety argument, as well, even though the proposed solution is to ostracize anyone in the NRA. (??)

------------------
Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
 
Bluesman-earlier referred to a fellow he talked to quite a bit and got comfratable with obviously not the type of person to turn to the police if he here's you have a non PC weapon or that you might have one loaded or in the same room with ammo.
But I just want to give the extremist reminder that this is not where HCI or the MMM people are going with gun safety.
They want to take it where its law to tell how your store all your weapons and ammo and pherphaps after thats down pat the police should be able to check how your storing your weapons for the good of the community and all.
If you dont want to cooperate you must not care about the children or what happened at columbine etc. etc.
For those who dont think that can be brought up or atleast us further herded in that direction remember this one..
we are now being told criminals have access to guns throught the 'gunshow loophole'.
I might have seen 5% percent of the guns sold privately that were available through a dealer.
We all know though in one way or another that the NICS or even the lovely yellow forms are a form of gun registration and can be used to keep track of us.
I also dont like being told as RKBA groups jump on the gunsafety bandwagon with the HCI bunch that its my fault for leaving a trigger lock off one of guns that a some gangbanger broke in while I was out of town and stole that gun and shot someone with it.
Just a thought and I certainly being able to hear all of those brought out above.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Thomas:
Gee ... here's a radical idea - John Johannessen could have actually trained his daughter how to behave around firearms.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you. Once my baby is old enoughg I am going to teach her about gun safety. If everybody did this with their kids we wouldn't have this problem.
 
like brady said above, this article is an attempt at another "for the children" safety measure. After all, the average nonfirearm owner most likely would not have taught their children that they are not suppose to handle any fire arm, and should treat it as being loaded. Therefore, it's trying to say that it is "for their safety" that these parents shouldn't allow their children to enter into a house where someone would keep any firearms. Notice that nowhere in the article is it saying anything about asking the other parent about the safe storage and handling of any firearms, only if there are any present (and to ostracize that family for having them, it seems). sounds like the typical spin on firearms to me (kinda unusual for orange county, i think - i hope that usually strong republican area isn't becoming democratic).

also, if you visit the pax site, you'll see that its purpose is "the movement to stop gun violence",

check out their "statistical highlights" link http://www.paxusa.org/?m=p&g=library/i_library_stats.html&e_e=39d03a7275f1bd4c_30193
including such "facts" as
in 1998, over 10 children and teens, ages 19 and under, were killed with guns every day in this country.
and
75% percent of gun-owners and 85% of non-gun-owners support licensing and registration of handguns.
or thier "faqs" and other information at http://www.paxusa.org/?m=p&g=i_sitemap.html&e_e=39d03a7275f1bd4c_30193

errr... and check out their list of sponsers - ekkk


[This message has been edited by cm (edited September 26, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Once my baby is old enoughg I am going to teach her about gun safety. If everybody did this with their kids we wouldn't have this problem.[/quote]

Ummm, not necessarily true. Kids can and usually do disobey, sometimes taking risks they shouldn't take. Look out the window and Johnny is way up at the top of the apple tree, about to fall out on his head ... and you've told him to stay out of that tree because he could fall out and break his neck! YES, kids need to be "gun proofed" and taught, but NO, that won't stop all accidental deaths from guns.

So teach your baby, but keep your gun either on your person -- or locked in the safe.

As far as asking or not asking, everyone so far has made good points on both sides. When it comes to your kids' safety, you are the only one who can determine whether a given location is a safe place for them to play without your supervision. So as a parent it's your responsibility to ask whatever questions you need to in order to be sure that you can safely let your kids play at the neighbors' house.

But the campaign to "ask" puts me in mind of another thread -- the one about a city government paying $200 for anonymous tips about illegal guns. I don't particularly want to live in a society where the neighbors ask nosy questions and then anonymously report me if they don't like the answers. Do you?

pax

"There are three ways to get something done: do it yourself, employ someone to do it, or forbid your children from doing it." -- Monta Crane
 
Back
Top