As terrorists and U.S. clash, find out which is better--the M-16 or the AK-47

Drizzt

New member
The Way of the Gun

As terrorists and U.S. troops clash, find out which weapon is better--the M-16 or the AK-47.

by Bo Crader
11/30/2001 12:01:00 AM


SHROUDED IN MYSTIQUE, the AK-47 has played a central role in every insurgency and revolution of the past 40 years. It was the weapon of choice for Viet Cong and Somali warlords. During the Cold War it was a symbol of the Red Menace even as the Afghan mujahedeen used it to drive the Soviets out of the country.

The Washington Post's Stephen Hunter wrote a sort of love letter to the rifle earlier this week, describing the AK-47 as "a tough masterpiece . . . a tommy gun designed by Mr. Moto, after reading Dostoyevsky and a favorable history of Peter the Great." Its curved magazine, he writes, gives the rifle "an Orientalized sensibility," and the wooden stock alludes to the weapon's proletarian roots. Osama bin Laden, Hunter proposes, wields the weapon as a signifier of both revolution and nobility, a status symbol in the world of terrorism and political violence.

But what about its counterpart, the M-16 service rifle, the all-American Commie-slayer? Colt, the M-16's manufacturer, claims the M-16 "represents the world standard by which all other weapons of this class are judged." Yet, during Vietnam, American troops reportedly abandoned their M-16s in favor of pilfered enemy AK-47s. And, with nearly 50 million AK-47s currently in use, the AK-47 has an installed base, as it were, ten times larger than the M-16. Why, then, isn't the Marine Corps charging Kandahar with it?

A comparison of the weapons shows a number of similarities. Both weapons have a selector switch just above the trigger that allows a shooter to choose his rate of fire. M-16 users can fire a single shot (semi-automatic) or a three-round burst. The AK-47 offers semi- and full- automatic. The weapons deliver fire at similar rates, about 800 rounds per minute on automatic and 12-15 rounds per minute in sustained fire. Each handles 30-round magazines and can be fitted with a variety of scopes, night-vision devices, and grenade launchers.

The key difference lies in the size of the rounds and the relative muzzle velocities. The M-16 uses 5.56 mm rounds--which have become the standard for NATO forces--and has a muzzle velocity of 853 meters-per-second. The AK-47 uses larger 7.62 mm rounds and has a muzzle velocity of 710 meters-per-second.

What does this mean? A properly trained marksman can effectively engage an area target--a vehicle, for instance--with an M-16 at up to 800 meters. On a point target--say, someone's head--the weapon is accurate up to 550 meters. The AK-47's lower muzzle velocity and heavier ammunition limits its accurate range to about 300 meters.

The M-16 weighs under 8 pounds, about two pounds less than the AK-47 when fully loaded. The weapon's "lower weight and smaller round size allow troops to carry more ammunition," says Clayton, an 8-year Army veteran who now retails weapons at the Potomac Arms Corporation in Alexandria, Virginia (he asked that his last name not be used). "With ammo, body armor, and gear, the smaller rounds are much more workable and reduce overall workload."

Surprisingly, the small, high-velocity rounds of the M-16 pack a bigger punch than those of the AK-47. "The high velocity of the tiny M-16 round increases its mass relative to slower, larger caliber bullets," retired Air Force Major Charles F. Hawkins wrote in a 1993 letter to the Washington Post. "More important, high velocity produces hydrostatic shock as an M-16 round enters a body, and is profoundly more damaging than, say, the much slower AK-47 bullet." To put it bluntly, the speeding 5.56 millimeter round rips apart organs and tissue as it pierces and exits the body almost simultaneously, causing mass trauma and internal bleeding while inducing shock.

"The M-16 does things the AK-47 can only dream about," adds Clayton. "It has better workmanship, better ergonomics, better sights, and less recoil."

If the M-16 is so great, why are AK-47s so popular? Major Hawkins suggests four reasons: "(1) its availability, (2) relatively low cost, (3) simplicity of maintenance and operation, (4) overall reliability under extremes of weather and terrain, and not its inherent ability to kill."

Considering this, the AK-47 will always have a mass market. "The AK-47 can withstand dirt better," Clayton explains. "It's designed to be drug through the mud and still function. It's designed for poorly-educated, poorly-disciplined troops. It's idiot-proof."

In other words, it's the ideal weapon for Osama bin Laden.


Bo Crader is an editorial assistant at The Weekly Standard.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/624wdybu.asp
 
M-16 with a 20" barrel? Or M-4 with a 14.5" barrel? There's a difference between the two.

Seems to me that in all the visuals from Afghanistan I've seen, most of the U.S. weapons are M-4s, not M-16s.

Unfortunately the article presents a lot of misinformation.
 
i heard on the radio last night a report from a captured Afghani jail

it was all locked up & the new owners were trying to figure out how to get in
They considered shooting or blowing open the door but then they would have a jailhouse with no door

so they buttstroked the locks off with their AKs

do not try this with an AR

;)
 
Ignoring Major Hawkin's pseudoscientific nonsense about the "mass" of the .223 being multiplied by it's velocity, I still wouldn't want to get hit with a .223 that tumbles or yaws after impact. But . . . if a .223 is so much more devastating than a 7.62x39, why is the latter a legal deer cartridge in almost all states, and the former isn't?

M16 wins on range, accuracy, weight, combat ergonomics, maybe penetration. AK wins on reliability, upkeep, and cost.
 
Hardly the first time.

...from the Ia Drang and the A Shau to the Bekaa Valley and Beirut, from Costa Rica to Kuwait, Grenada to 73 Easting to the streets of Mogadishu, it's not like those two rifles have never met in battle before.
 
ak 47

i saw col hackworth on tv awhile back and he said he would rather have an ak.i know that is just his pick and dosnt mean anything.i dont know enough about each to make a statement about them.i know there are people on this site that do.

swab
 
But . . . if a .223 is so much more devastating than a 7.62x39, why is the latter a legal deer cartridge in almost all states, and the former isn't?

Game laws do not get changed easily because the people who hold the prejudices based on early tests will not be swayed from their gilded laurels.

The problem with using a varmit gun on medium game is bullet construction. There were no big game bullets in .22 caliber 50 years ago and with varmit bullets, these rifles had a reputation of causing massive surface trauma without inducing immediately lethal wounds.

The advent of Nosler Partitions, Winchester Power Points and Trophy Bonded core bullets to the .22 caliber diameter has made big game hunting possible with a .22. A bullet that completely penetrates its target has wasted energy.

The wounding isn't based on energy but rather power. Or how fast was energy dissipated in the target.
 
Anyone else notice in the video of Bin Laden that he is shooting an AK-74, not -47?! It looks just a hair different and has the ugly orange magazine. That fires a 5.45mm round, not a 7.62mm. I could be wrong. :confused:
In the recent videos you can usually see an AKSU-74 leaned against the wall. You can tell it's an -SU by the truncated cone-shaped flash suppressor at the end of the barrel. Again, it uses the 5.45mm round.
The guys wandering around look like they carry a mix of whatever they could find. There are -47s, -74s, and I've seen a couple of RPKs lugged around or mounted. There was one right behind one of the CNN guys on a report yesterday.
Yeah, the guns are more intersting than the reports most of the time. " This NEXT phase will get a lot of Americans killed... no, then this NEXT phase will get a lot of Americans killed... well, definitely, THIS NEXT phase will get a lot of Americans killed. Sh*t, no dead Americans yet, but we've heard of billions of civilians killed by those nasty Yankee Air Pirates! Blah, blah,, blah..."
 
Yawn... This same argument has been going on since Vietnam. I doubt that the rifle that bin Laden likes will have much to do with his ultimate demise. Bin Laden and the Taliban are already dead, even if they don't know it yet. Does that make the M16/M4 the better weapon? Maybe, maybe not. Watch-Six
 
F=Ma, I hope he meant as a force multiplier, and not as a mass multiplier, as mass doesn't change..

A lot of misinformation in this article. I'm not a big fan of the M16 by any stretch of the imagination. My M1a has less than 50% of the parts an M16 has, and there's no tiny little springs which are easy to lose in the field. There are way too many parts, and of course, it sh*ts where it eats, the dirt is blown back into the same hole.

As for a .223 vs 7.62x39 arguement, that is OLD. When are our troops shooting 800 yards open sights in combat? That's just BS. Anything I can hit with open sights with .223's I can probably hit with x39's. I mean my visual accuity is about 300yards limit, and I think so is all but the best snipers.

I would probably prefer an M1 Carbine over an M16.

I'm waiting for someone to produce a rifle based on the .223 that has fewer than 100 parts total, and is about 5.5lbs. That would be ideal. To me, parts count is a big issue, it pertains to reliabilty, efficiency, and stripdown-ability. That little spring on the extractor, if lost, renders your M16 useless. The spring is like || that big. That's not something I want to try to find in the deserts of Afgan..

Albert
 
Apple a Day is right. Bin Laden's weapon in all those pictures is an AKSU-74 "Krinkov" 5.45x39mm submachine gun with a 40-round magazine from an RPK-74.
 
F=Ma, I hope he meant as a force multiplier, and not as a mass multiplier, as mass doesn't change..

Yes it does, just not very much at the speeds we can launch bullets at... ;)
 
"The high velocity of the tiny M-16 round increases its mass relative to slower, larger caliber bullets," retired Air Force Major Charles F. Hawkins wrote in a 1993 letter to the Washington Post.


Is it just me or does it scare you that the Air Force doesn't understand high-school-level Newtonian physics?

Most of the supposed problems that M16 people seem to have with the AK47 were fixed with the AK74.

Want a lighter cartridge? The AK74 has it.
Want lower recoil (even than a M16)? The AK74 has it.
Want greater accuracy? The AK74 has it.
Want better sights? The AK74 has the optics mounting rail.

However, the very fact that people are comparing the 1980's M16A2 to the 1950's AK-47 and AKM is testement enough to the designs longevity.

However, I still want to see a AK74 pitted againt the M16 in some serious tests.
 
AK-47 designed for idiots and idiot-proof? Designed to be drug through the mud and still fire? That actually sounds like traits every army would want in a firearm.

Contrary to the article, the gun was not designed for poorly educated and poorly disciplined troops. It was designed for fairly short range fighting and to be functional under the worst of circumstances. It works in Siberian winters, Sahara summers, wet jungles, etc. It may not be as refined as the M-16, but the AK-47 did a hell of a job on Americans in Vietnam.
 
The 5.56mm NATO round, fired from a 20" barrel, retains it's hypervelocity effects for around 150 to 200 meters from the muzzle. Past that, you're shooting a .22LR. No way can one honestly claim that the M16A2 (or whatever) has an effective range of 800 meters. Jeez.

The 5.45mm Russian cartridge (isn't it a necked-down 7.62x39?) has similar terminal effects to the 5.56mm, but suffers big-time in the accuracy department. The 5.45mm bullets hollow core makes it unstable in flight and prone to keyholing. The AK-74 is a 5MOA rifle at the best of times. IMO, that's not good enough for a battle rifle.

In the hands of a trained and motivated soldier, though, either weapon will take large nasty chunks out of ones hide.

- Chris
 
Well just about every time the two weapons have meet on a battlefield the side carrying the M16 have won the battle. But that has little to do with the weapon as the military system and training of the men that carried them.
 
The advent of Nosler Partitions, Winchester Power Points and Trophy Bonded core bullets to the .22 caliber diameter...
I didn't know Partitions were available in .22. IMHO if more people were using .22 centerfires on deer, there would be more unrecovered deer "lost" after being shot. A .223, regardless of bullet, leaves less margin for error in shot placement.

Tamara noted,in response to twoblink's assertion that mass doesn't change:
Yes it does, just not very much at the speeds we can launch bullets at...
Tamara, what a masterpiece of understatement! ;) For .223 muzzle velocities, I think the change is somewhere out around the 12th decimal place...

Have any studies been done on the terminal effects of the SS109 bullet fired from a 1:7 twist barrel as compared to the original (M193?) 55 grain bullet fired from a 1:12 twist barrel? I've heard assertions that the new bullet is more stable, and less prone to tumble after impact.
 
I like both weapons, but if I were given a choice of weapon to carry into battle I would pick the AK-47.

I went to Iraq with the 24th Infantry Division and found out just how unreliable our M16's can be in that desert environment without continual cleaning or protection from the sand. When we travelled in our Howitzers the dust got all over and into everything, including our M16's. It crept under the dust covers and found its way into our magazines. Needless to say it created some serious reliability problems. M16's run best with a good amount of lubrication, a definite problem in the desert type enviroment as the lubrication only attracts more dust and dirt. I've examined numerous AK47's abandoned by Iraqi troops in their foxholes...(actually most were mini "bunkers" where they lived) and on the ground. They were full of sand and looked like they had not been oiled in quite some time, yet they were perfectly functional.

One point not addressed is the effectiveness of the 5.56 Nato vs 7.62x39 against light armored vehicles. I would much rather have a heavier larger diameter bullet against these types of targets. One of the main arguements when we went from the M60 to the M240 Saw was whether or not it would be effective against vehicles. Yes, the SS109 has a steel penetrator tip, but it isn't very large and won't cause much damage against vehicles. In battle field situations you need to have a weapon effective against both personnel and vehicles. That is why I am such a fan of the M14 series rifle.

As for hunting deer with a .223, just about anyone who has had some extensive experience with deer hunting can tell you that the .223 is very marginal as a deer hunting caliber. More people go to a larger caliber weapon for added power and penetration. The 7.62x39 is definitely a better deer hunting cartridge. You want deep penetration with a large caliber bullet and preferably an entrance and exit hole. The same goes with hunting wild hogs. The " shield" of a hog can often be enough to disrupt a .223 bullet so that it doesn't penetrate to the vitals. The 7.62 round will punch through easily. It makes ya wonder...what if the Vietcong were outfitted with flak jackets? Would this have made a difference in the effectiveness of the 5.56 catridge using the older series ammo rather than the steel tip SS109's?

What the 5.56 cartridge does do very well is make some truly nasty battlefield wounds. This can be desirable in combat. One soldier wounded to the point where he cannot fight becomes a liability. The screaming of the wounded distracts the non wounded and has a psychological effect on the fighters. It often takes one or more fighters temporarily out of action to tend to the wounded soldier.

So given a choice between the two I would carry the AK. Simple, rugged and effective. Is it as fancy and "cool" as an M4 with an ACOG and RAS sytem? Heck no! But for a getting down and dirty battle rifle it's hard to beat the AK.

My ultimate preference ?....M14.

Good Shooting
RED
 
Back
Top