Others may already know this but it was news to me. According to the Army Times 6.5 to 7mm cartridges are being tested as a possible replacement for the 5.56. Among those mentioned being tested were the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem. An interesting sidebar was that they were also looking into polymer cases instead of brass. Should be interesting to see how things develop.
Army Times story
- Thread starter oldscot3
- Start date
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
According to the Army Times circa 2004, the XM8 is going to replace the M16 as the standard infantry rifle and we are going to abandon the Picatinny rail for HK's proprietary system.
2004? Would I be wrong to suspect you don't place much credibility in Army Times reporting? It may not happen for a long time, but the army has been known to change weapons and ammunition before.
The article I read dates from this month I believe. My takeaway was that they're looking for something with a bit more energy at longer range.
The article I read dates from this month I believe. My takeaway was that they're looking for something with a bit more energy at longer range.
g.willikers
New member
If so, does that mean there's going to be lots of surplus ammo available soon?
the short answer is...
NO
Not soon, if ever. IF (when????) they go to a different round, supplies stockpiled in the states MAY go in the surplus market, depending on the administration in power at the time.
Stuff that wen overseas ISN'T coming back. Period.
Back in the 70s, at one of the bases I was on, in Germany, the Army Times was proudly displayed on the shelf of the Stars&Stripes bookstore. Right next to the Rolling Stone.
Between the two, we found the Rolling Stone to have more accurate, factual information.
Did the article talk specifically about replacing the 5.56 as the general infantry round, or more specifically about for sniper systems?
Was it this article?
http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/socom-is-looking-at-a-new-65mm-round-for-its-sniper-rifle
While I wouldn't say it is impossible, I find it pretty unlikely that 6.5CM or .260 would be even a remote consideration for a new general infantry rifle, while not as much recoil as the .308, they are still a little excessive for FA fire, and the ammo loadout would be lower per soldier, because the ammo weighs more and takes up more space.
Was it this article?
http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/socom-is-looking-at-a-new-65mm-round-for-its-sniper-rifle
While I wouldn't say it is impossible, I find it pretty unlikely that 6.5CM or .260 would be even a remote consideration for a new general infantry rifle, while not as much recoil as the .308, they are still a little excessive for FA fire, and the ammo loadout would be lower per soldier, because the ammo weighs more and takes up more space.
JoeSixpack
New member
Someone correct me if im wrong but aren't we required to stick to NATO rounds?
They might be looking for a new rifle but I can't imagine them switching from 5.56
They might be looking for a new rifle but I can't imagine them switching from 5.56
Ain't that the truth.
"...aren't we required to stick to NATO rounds..." That'd be the theory. Except both the 7.62NATO and 5.56NATO were U.S. inventions nobody in NATO actually wanted but got jammed down other NATO country's throats by the U.S.
Then there's the .45 ACP, that has never been a NATO cartridge, the U.S. used until 1985 despite that.
"...destroy it all before allowing citizens to buy it..." Yep. Included approximately 500,000 perfectly good C1A1's, C2's, No. 4 and 7 rifles that got chopped by our idiot government.
Then there's the .45 ACP, that has never been a NATO cartridge, the U.S. used until 1985 despite that.
"...destroy it all before allowing citizens to buy it..." Yep. Included approximately 500,000 perfectly good C1A1's, C2's, No. 4 and 7 rifles that got chopped by our idiot government.
ndking1126
New member
Anyone familiar with the 6x6.8 SPC wildcat? I'm not a serious reloader, so I generally don't spend much time with wildcats, but this one caught my eye. Actually seems like it would be a good candidate for the Army. (I don't think the Army is going to change calibers anytime soon.. just thinking outloud.)
I can't find much data, but it seems like it can push an 6mm 85 grain bullet about 2800 fps with a 16" barrel. That definitely will have a little more authority than the 55 or 62 gr 5.56.
It should feed more reliably because of the straighter case taper, be easier to lug around and have less recoil than the 260 Rem (same size as the 7.62 of course). Down size is it won't have the range or "knock down power" of the 260.
On the other hand, I own a 260 Rem. If the Army were to pick the caliber up, maybe I'd start seeing it on the shelves again.. hmm.
I can't find much data, but it seems like it can push an 6mm 85 grain bullet about 2800 fps with a 16" barrel. That definitely will have a little more authority than the 55 or 62 gr 5.56.
It should feed more reliably because of the straighter case taper, be easier to lug around and have less recoil than the 260 Rem (same size as the 7.62 of course). Down size is it won't have the range or "knock down power" of the 260.
On the other hand, I own a 260 Rem. If the Army were to pick the caliber up, maybe I'd start seeing it on the shelves again.. hmm.
Lots more information on this in the following, recent thread: "Military replacing the 5.56?"
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586706&highlight=army&page=3
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586706&highlight=army&page=3
I'm an old man, I wont be serving in an infantry company any more and I certainly wont get a vote on what the army picks or doesn't pick. I know what worked for me when I did serve in combat in SE Asia, but Vietnam is History, not doctrine.
I do recall having an "Infantry Magazine" from the 70s that reported that by the summer of 1976 the Army would field a AR rifle in 6 MM. 1976 came and gone, we are still using the 223/5.56 so I don't put much stock in what is being reported what the Army might or will do.
Doesn't effect me anyway. I shoot for fun, competition and hunting. I pick what works for my lifestyle and not as if I'm going into combat, because I'm not.
I've seen a lot since I first joined the Army in 1966. I've seen a lot that had been reported that WAS gonna happen but DIDN'T.
They may in the future turn over surplus 5.56 ammo to the CMP to sell to civilians. Then they might not. Who knows. They did give '06 ammo to the DCM/CMP for us peons. In the past 45s, 30 carbine, and others. What they do in the future is anybody's guess.
I turn 70 next month, what ever they do, I wont be around to take advantage of, I'm certainly not sending the CMP a check to get on the waiting list for 5.56 ammo.
But its fun to speculate. I do, even knowing "what if's" don't come to pass.
I've played the game and its bit me in the butt a time or two. One such speculation got me big time.
When the NG was going to replace our M1C/D sniper rifles, running the AK NG Sniper Program at the time, I was given a choice of replacing our M1s with either the M21 or waiting for the M24s. I knew the M24s were capable of 308 or converting to 300 WM. My Rifle team at the time was shooting Model 70s in 300 WM, so I figured the M24 in 300 WM would give me better access to 300 Ammo for our 1000 yard matches, So I opted to take the M21, and would wait tell the M24 300s came out. That was in the 80s. I don't remember the exact day, but its only been within the last 10 years or so that the M24 series became readily available in 300 WM, long after I got out of the game. So I handy capped our sniper program by not taking the current (in the 80s) M24s.
But that's all water under the bridge, the only sniper rifle I use now is the M1904A4 in CMP Vintage Sniper Matches.
In short, take what you read about Army Rifles and Ammo with a grain of salt. Spend the effort picking rifles/ammo for what you shoot now, not what the Army might or might not do. Trust me, if you join, you don't get a choice. You get what's issued, not what speculators think you should have.
Marksmanship fundamentals are marksmanship fundamentals, they don't change. Concentrate on that, and you'll be ready for anything you or the army chooses.
I do recall having an "Infantry Magazine" from the 70s that reported that by the summer of 1976 the Army would field a AR rifle in 6 MM. 1976 came and gone, we are still using the 223/5.56 so I don't put much stock in what is being reported what the Army might or will do.
Doesn't effect me anyway. I shoot for fun, competition and hunting. I pick what works for my lifestyle and not as if I'm going into combat, because I'm not.
I've seen a lot since I first joined the Army in 1966. I've seen a lot that had been reported that WAS gonna happen but DIDN'T.
They may in the future turn over surplus 5.56 ammo to the CMP to sell to civilians. Then they might not. Who knows. They did give '06 ammo to the DCM/CMP for us peons. In the past 45s, 30 carbine, and others. What they do in the future is anybody's guess.
I turn 70 next month, what ever they do, I wont be around to take advantage of, I'm certainly not sending the CMP a check to get on the waiting list for 5.56 ammo.
But its fun to speculate. I do, even knowing "what if's" don't come to pass.
I've played the game and its bit me in the butt a time or two. One such speculation got me big time.
When the NG was going to replace our M1C/D sniper rifles, running the AK NG Sniper Program at the time, I was given a choice of replacing our M1s with either the M21 or waiting for the M24s. I knew the M24s were capable of 308 or converting to 300 WM. My Rifle team at the time was shooting Model 70s in 300 WM, so I figured the M24 in 300 WM would give me better access to 300 Ammo for our 1000 yard matches, So I opted to take the M21, and would wait tell the M24 300s came out. That was in the 80s. I don't remember the exact day, but its only been within the last 10 years or so that the M24 series became readily available in 300 WM, long after I got out of the game. So I handy capped our sniper program by not taking the current (in the 80s) M24s.
But that's all water under the bridge, the only sniper rifle I use now is the M1904A4 in CMP Vintage Sniper Matches.
In short, take what you read about Army Rifles and Ammo with a grain of salt. Spend the effort picking rifles/ammo for what you shoot now, not what the Army might or might not do. Trust me, if you join, you don't get a choice. You get what's issued, not what speculators think you should have.
Marksmanship fundamentals are marksmanship fundamentals, they don't change. Concentrate on that, and you'll be ready for anything you or the army chooses.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Oldscot, I think the point here is that we have seen numerous times over the years how the military is going to a new cartridge, new rifle, or new pistol. They will play around with a variety of toys, do dog and pony shows, and then change little or nothing except maybe letting a small subset use the new weapon.
Maybe this time they will make an actual change, but then again it didn't happen the last several times...If they cry "Wolf!" enough times, sooner or later the wolf will come, but usually not.
Maybe this time they will make an actual change, but then again it didn't happen the last several times...If they cry "Wolf!" enough times, sooner or later the wolf will come, but usually not.
2damnold4this
New member
Don Fischer
New member
Wonder why they would do that? On just carrying ammo alone, they can carry more 5.56 ammo. It they did make it the Creedmore, it would destroy the 260 completely I would thing.
I don't have a horse in the race, so it doesn't matter to me a whit what the army does or doesn't do, just thought the article was a bit interesting. I have been under the impression that perhaps the 55 grain 5.56 wasn't meeting certain needs in current theaters of operation since we keep seeing heavier projectiles, 62, 69, 77 appearing and changes to quicker twists in order to accommodate them. Seems logical to connect that tidbit to Army testing of larger calibers with even heavier bullets and at least imagine that they might serious.
Also the sidebar about polymer cases interests me since the cost of brass just keeps going up and up.
Also the sidebar about polymer cases interests me since the cost of brass just keeps going up and up.
Double Naught Spy
New member
While I am a huge fan of the Grendel and hunt with one several times a week, I am also realistic about it. You cannot get longer shots with more punch with the Grendel over the 5.56 and still carry the same amount of ammo. Grendel rounds are not the same size, shape, and weight of 5.56 rounds. You are looking at a bullet roughly double in size and a case akin to that of the 7.62x39. So Grendel rounds are fatter and heavier and while still fitting into a 5.56 magazine (different follower) do not fit with as many rounds. In a 30 round 5.56 mag, you can get 25 Grendel rounds. So you are going to be down about 1/6.
So NO, you can't carry as much ammo because Grendel rounds are bigger and heavier than 5.56 rounds.