Armed Protest Scheduled for Glendale, Az

RickD

Moderator
Due to the city of glendale's refusing to conform to the state preemption law (ARS 13-3108) and the weapons checking statute (ARS 13-3102(a)(10)), and negotiations having broken down, we are scheduling a week-long protest at the three library branch culminating on Saturday, October 21 at the scenic Glendale municipal building ampetheater around 11 am. We will be carrying signs, roasting weenies, and singing songs with the ad hoc band known as "Tite Group" fronted by www.gunlaw.com author, Alan Korwin.

What Glendale wants is to us to leave our guns in our cars where they can be stolen. Failing that, Glendale says what they can do is have a police officer show up at, say, a library, and take possession of the defense tool. He then takes it up to two miles away to the police property room. They refuse to return the weapon after the library patron's visit is over and so the patron must drive, bike, walk, or bus to the police station.

Oh, yeah, the property room closes four hours before the library closes.

Our main issue is this: if Glendale is going to decide to utilize 13-3102 (and it doesn't have to) then they must check the weapon on-site. But, since there is no specific security threat (no court room, council chambers, etc) and hence, no security guard at these libraries, there is no need to disarm the good guys. Just leave us alone.

Please call Glendale Police Chief David Dobrotka at 623-930-3051 and ask him why he advised the City Manager to 1) not have the customary Arizona lockboxes (no, the librarians do not have to touch the guns), and 2) why does he think he needs to disarm the good guys in these libraries.

Yeah, you can call even if you are not from Arizona. Thirty cents is not much to pay for a little activist fun.

We will be having a TUG meeting (The Umbrella Group) on Wednesday, October 18th at 7pm at the Tempe-area Country Harvest Buffet on Priest and Elliot. Food is $9.

Contact me at r.destephens@att.net if you have any questions.

Rick
 
Last night after work I decided to brave the Friday traffic and go directly to the Glendale library on 59th Avenue and Union Hills just south of the Honeywell plant. My mission was to head on in and find aparticular article in Popular Science... something to do with a new eco-friendly diesel engine, or maybe it was another story in those compacted-earth homes...I can't remember. But, dang it. I would have to
check my Glock 21 to do it.

I arrived on the scene at 5:28pm. I strolled into the library, glancing at the strangely worded sign which appeared to be requesting to check any firearms under ARS 13-3102(a)(10). I walked in through the double sliding doors and found the front desk dead ahead, which was crowded with about a dozen library patrons. The two lines moved quickly and I approached a rather pretty brunette who asked if she could help me. I
told her I needed to check my gun. She responded with a mildly fretful look and said, "I don't know how to handle that."

She walked away to confer with an unseen manager while I stepped out of the line to check out the paper backs on the wall. She came back and helped another customer who had gotten in line. All the while people of
all ages streamed by me, none of them flying off into a panic at the sight of me. I can't really credit my usual "Docker Detective" look as I was dressed in jeans, basketball shoes and a golf shirt.

Soon I was up at the desk again. As she was about to speak, she was interrupted by her manager who told me that I needed to take the firearm and put it in my car... I interjected and told her I would not do that(didn't want it stolen). She then said she would have to call the police to have them take care of the gun. Fine with me. She told me to wait
outside. Nuh-uh. I'll stay here.

All this took under two minutes. I noted the time at 5:30pm and waited. At that time a young security guard was summoned, I guess to guard me. He was unarmed and looking a little puzzled as to why he had to be there. I took the time to tell him what it was all about and the history was this whole deal. Twice the manager buzzed by to, well, I don't know
what. I guess she wanted to snipe at me by saying nothing in particular.

When I would respond she would walk away and say "I have no opinion," or "I don't know the law." This was followed up with a "I'm better than you" glint in her eye. Okay, if ya want.

Then I found out that the library closes at 6pm on Friday nights. Crapola. This would be a short night. I told the security guard that
this would change my plans and that when the officer arrived I would leave the building and go home after talking to him. At 5:45pm, 15 minutes after the call was made, a Glendale PD guy walked through the door. Since they were well aware of the plan, you would think they would have been more timely. Would it be 30 minutes on a usual day?

As he walked in, wearing a dark golf shirt with the name "T. Hammer" embroidered on the right side. I didn't look at his stripes, but I would guess he was a sergeant. He had a radio plug in his ear and the
now-all-to-typical para-military haircut. I said something like, "I'm the guy you wanna see." We walked outside. I can't recall if it was his request or mine (he later said it was mine) but it suited my plans. As I walked out he said that I would have to disarm myself if we were to talk ("for [his] safety"). You can imagine the banter that caused. But since
it was clear he wanted a quid pro quo and I needed information, I took my Galco FED paddle and slid it out of my pants taking the gun and tossing it onto my front seat.

He was standing at my back bumper with my at my right-rear fender. He whipped out his little note pad and asked for my name and date of birth.

I told him he didn't need that information and I was not required under the law to provide it. He insisted that he needed this for his report. I told him I was not required to help him write his contact report and he
needed to show me where in statute I was required to ID myself. This was shaping up to be a lot like the Mill Avenue unilateral spittle contest from a year and a half ago for those of you who have been following along all this time.

He then threw me a bit of a curve (I am happy to say) when he told me that he was only doing what he was required to do and that since I was a taxpayer he was only doing what I required him to do as his employer....

Ya gotta admit, that took some balls to offer up that inverted platitude. Sgt. Hammer is a very skilled field interviewer. He even asked me if I thought he was being polite. I will have to say he was being aggressively officious, but that's pretty common.

What it came down to was that unless I gave him my name he would not tell me what the checking process was to be. He would not say what he would have done with the gun, where it was going, and when I could get it back. He then told me that he was a member of the NRA, and that he supports RKBA and that his family owns and carries guns even though they
are not police officers.

So, either I would stick to my guns and not give him my name (with my license plate their for all to see) or I would conduct my interview. I gave him my name. He then asked for my date of birth again. I told him
no, he didn't need it and that Chief Dobrotka would know who I am... I began asking him questions, which he grudgingly answered.

It turns out that since the property room was closed at this time of day (but not to him, he said). He would drop the gun off at the property room after some unknown interval of time and he would not bring the weapon back to me. I would have to drive to the property room to claim my gun. I asked him when I would be able to pick it up on Saturday
morning. He told me I would "have to call the property room" people, he stalled. I asked when they would be there. He told me sometime on Monday morning.

MONDAY MORNING?!? Two and one-half days later?

The City of Glendale thinks this is a good weapons checking plan that would not conflict with Arizona's Constitution which guarantees that "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in his defense or of the State shall not be impaired"?

I was feeling a tad impaired and I told him so.

At this point I looked up and saw two other Glendale officers standing in position. Standing behind and to the left of Sgt. Hammer was Officer A. Haney. Across from him was a rather largish and equally young cop,
whose name I could not read. We'll call him Big Guy. I looked at both of them and said, "Hey, looks like ya got me surrounded. Come on in guys and join the conversation," as I motioned with my arms. They didn't budge. No sense of humor. No camaraderie with the serfs. So, now I was thinkin', it takes three cops to do a weapons check? This was more of a waste of time and manpower than I thought. Sgt. Hammer was getting very frustrated (or pretending to be) and kept telling me he would break off the conversation...

Then I get another curve. Sgt. T. Hammer then begins a scolding monologue (as if I were in an episode of C.O.P.S.) about the fact that
my battle was not with him or the police but that I should fix this through the courts or the legislature. He told me that what I was doing was not going to solve anything and that this is not the proper way to do activism.

I was rather amazed that this guy would engage me in that type of discussion in the first place. But I jumped and told him that it would work just fine and told him all the other things we had accomplished with this method (Sacaton Rest Stop Protest. Take Your Gun For A Walk In The Park, etc). Then I got to his scolding. It sounded more like a
political clap-trap as if part of his "duty" was to give me the party line. I told him that every City Council member had been giving me the same canned speech as if they had been coached by the City Attorney. I
asked if he had been talking to Asst City Attorney Rick Flaaen. The Hammer told me he had never met the man (evasive, I thought), but after I told him that his Sgt Toomey, and Chief Dobrotka had conferred with Mr. Flaaen and that they likely relayed the information back to him, all I got was silence.

Then T. Hammer began to scold me how my actions were tying up the time of three officers when in his very ear there were radio calls that he could be going on right now if I wasn't here for checking my firearm.

EXACTLY!! You have not one but three of Glendale's finest hanging around a good-guy with a gun, and their leader on scene complaining about having to enforce a policy handed down by City Manager Marty Vanacour on
the advice of Chief Dobrotka. City officials say they are doing the policy on advice of the Chief, and the Chief claims he can't change the policy that he advised the City Manager to implement. As an end result,
the officer now complains about having to carry out the policy, and in a fit of projection, blames the lawful citizen for complying with ARS 13-3102(a)(10) which doesn't have to be implemented in the first place.

At that point I finally had connected the dots. I pointed at each officer and told them that if they didn't like the policy they should go to their union and complain to every city official who was behind it.
"We don't have a union."

GET ONE. Or complain to the Chief directly.

"He won't listen to us," T. Hammer said, as if it were my fault that Glendale policy forced him to be here. The conversation began to deteriorate with more talk of the cops leaving. Screw it, fine, and told him, "This contact is over. You are free to go." I turned and opened the door to my Toyota Corolla. The three cops walked a few
feet towards each other to commiserate. I reached in and grabbed my still-holstered Glock 21 and stuffed the paddle holster over my left hip. I climbed in and made a radio call on the amateur repeater. I am sure they wondered to whom I was speaking as I drove off into the setting sun.

Just doing their jobs, are they?

I am sure the cops in Selma, Alabama were following policy when they beat the **** out of Martin Luther King's men. "Coloreds jes gotta know their place." Just as then, Glendale is operating under COLOR OF LAW and is trying to raise the bar for lawful gun owners to exercise their rights and to fight this putrid, politically correct policy.

Here is the re-cap.

1) Glendale wants gun owners to disarm themselves when police have no responsibility to protect themselves.

2) They want the gun left in the car where it can be stolen.

3) If a person wants to check a firearm per ARS 13-3102, the must go through the onerous task designed to discourage that very aim.

4) Although I refused, the library staff said that I must wait outside for the police to arrive even if it is 115 degrees outside, or raining.

5) The police require ID information when checking which could very well be used to illegally tie the owner of the gun to the serial number of the gun. See the 1986 Gun Owners Protection Act for reference.

6) Since the property room is closed in the late afternoon, anyone checking a firearm at a library or the Civic Center or the Municipal building after that period will find their right to bear a defensive tool impaired for at approximately sixteen hours (or 2.5 days on a Friday night) and the person would then have to drive to the property room to pick it up.

7) This small sample of line cops shows they are not happy wasting time facilitating this onerous infringement on our rights and would rather be taking care of the bad guys (which we are not).

8) The City of Glendale has convinced this small sample of line cops that it is not the fault of sycophantic city officials who concocted this abortion of a policy, but the fault of the law-abiding and peaceful gun owner who attempt to comply (ie, they make an honest man walk a crooked mile).

9) Since, unlike Glendale, most Arizona cities are in compliance with ARS 13-3108 and ARS 13-3102(a)(10), will the City of Glendale be surprised if its citizens soon have as little respect for the law as does the City?

Rick
 
Nicely done, I hope you carry a recorder in your pocket.

------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Did any of them have german accents?

IN the line of duty your rights mean very little only the recently enacted laws put their to restrict and rewrite what you once knew as rights.While serving the community individulas become snafu's.
Police are only their to protect and serve the community NOT individuals and only that when they choose to honor their oathe.

I am an individual.

Arent libraries funded by tax dollars.
Could this be an abuse of tax dollars,using them to create another constitution free zone.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
If alone, I'd suggest a clip-on tape recorder.

Ideally, a witness or two at a somewhat discrete distance with a video camera running. Two's better and at different vantage points.

Either (both) is sure to come in handy pretty soon.

Good for you guys!
 
...but the fault of the law-abiding and peaceful gun owner who attempt to comply...

So the question that begs asking is, WHY try to comply? The SC ruled many years ago that citizens have no obligation to follow unconstitutional "laws".

"Just say no."

------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
 
An excellent question. However, the main point is not to *just* ignore our masters, but to point out that the masters can't even follow the laws they pass.

You take this issue and the press will come. Gun really bore your typical liberal reporter. But throw in typical city hall shenanigans and they flock to the scene. We will use this to show another couple dozen people out there (the ones who are paying attention) that the Emporer has no clothes.

And it looks like we have already gotten some things changed. The property room is now accessible 24 hrs a day.

As dandy as this might seem, we still have problems. They say they don't log in the data, but there is paperwork that follows your gun. Check you gun in Glendale and it essentially is "registered" in a manner of speaking.

We can ignore them later. Today we fight them, expose them.

Rick
 
What you need to do is get together a bunch of gunowners and do this all day long. Have one come in and ask to check his gun. Have the next guy wait in the parking lot until after he sees the cops leave. Keep them running back and forth all day long.

Don't bother to talk to them or try to convince them. You're just going to the library, like any normal citizen. After 30 min of reading a magazine, call up and tell them you're ready to leave.

M1911

[This message has been edited by M1911 (edited October 15, 2000).]
 
I bitched at the AZ reps about this ridiculous law, especially after the wonderful preemption proposal was changed to this monstrosity with the help of the NRA. I wish I was still there to help with the protest, but I have to say that I like Idaho better. Best of luck to you.

Eric
 
M1911,

They don't bring it back to you. You've got to go to them to retrieve your weapon.

Should you not retrieve it for 30 days it becomes "their's".

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Our main issue is this: if Glendale is going to decide to utilize 13-3102 (and it doesn't have to) then they must check the weapon on-site. But, since there is no specific security threat (no court room, council chambers, etc) and hence, no security guard at these libraries, there is no need to disarm the good guys. Just leave us alone.[/quote]

And:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All this took under two minutes. I noted the time at 5:30pm and waited. At that time a young security guard was summoned, I guess to guard me. He was unarmed and looking a little puzzled as to why he had to be there. I took the time to tell him what it was all about and the history was this whole deal.[/quote]

????? Do they or don't they have security? I mean if this is your main issue, and you find out it's not true, it puts some holes in the total argument doesn't it? I'm not trying to discredit your fine efforts here, just point out that the antis jump all over any incongruities like this.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
Why would you say this is my main issue? My main issue is that the City is disobeying the law as written. It is disobeying Arizona gun checking tradition and Attorney General Opinion I88. It is implementing this policy to discourage the good guys from carrying. It is in violation of Arizona's Constitutional provision found in Article 2, Section 26: "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired..."

The incongruities belong to the City, who maintained all along that there were no security guards. Even so, these are not true armed security, they are unarmed minimum wage type rentals. They cannot protect me. They won't be involved in checking my gun.

As well, a local activist, and normal looking gent went to check his gun at about the same time I did yesterday (different branch). He talked to the library manager who dutifully summoned police. The cop arrived, went "Code 4" and had my new buddy turn around and place his hands on his head. The cop reached around and retrieved the derringer in the west pocket all the while people thought my friend was in the middle of a felony arrest. My check went without incident but took way too long and required paperwork. My gun is now essentially registered (with someone). The things I do for the cause.

Some fun, huh?

We would like to get enough people to do this one after the other, after the other. But there are not enough people who are willing to put up with the contact, let alone step away from their computers. They don't want their guns defact registered, and they don't wanna carry a big knife instead (which would work).

Saturday is our scheduled big checking day (and weenie roast). We will see how many people show up for that. With numbers we have courage. Hopefully the TUG meeting this Wednesday night at the Tempe-area Country Harvest Buffet at 7pm (eat at 6pm) will roust the troops.

But clogging up the works is just one goal. I want to have my gun checked in Glendale enough times to talk to every-last Glendale cop so I can present my view of the policy.

You can bet that I will not be turning around and putting my hands on my head, either.

Rick
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RickD:
Why would you say this is my main issue? <SNIP> [/quote]

?Huh? I didn't say it was the main issue, you said it was the main issue, or at least that's how your post read.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
No. Here is my original quote...

"Our main issue is this: if Glendale is going to decide to utilize 13-3102 (and it doesn't
have to) then they must check the weapon on-site."

Additionally, since there is no articulable security need, such as in a courtroom, there is no need to invoke 13-3102 and to disarm us.

Rick
 
RAE,

Rick was told that the library has no security guards by the city "officials". Then he went there to do his thing and, like he said, there was a helpless-in-the-face-of-danger rental guy that was assigned to "keep an eye on him" after asking to check his weapon.

The incongruity is with the city, not with Rick.

Althought the gun-bigots would like it to be the other way around. It ain't!

We are trying to figure out just how many holes there are to these "official positions" and much they are willing to dodge and weave from the real question of why they refuse to acknowledge that they just want to disarm everyone.

Gendale city is empowering the criminals through this feel-good legislation that will bring more harm than good to the populace.

Disarm the good guys, take their tools of self-defense miles away from them and make them pick them up, don't provide security in the new victim-rich environment, stand behind the elitist "sovereign immunity" when one of these disarmed victims gets hurt/killed due to paternal legislation.

I'm new to all of this, but as we work through Glendale we'll be bringing these arguments home to the other suburbs of the Phoenix area.

"Coming soon to a library in your neighborhood."

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
Rick,
It's a bit silly to argue this minor point. Ok? I'm not trying to deride your position here, only trying to point out that given your wording, and the heading of this post, that this is NOT going to play well in court if you refuse to turn and put your hands on your head. I agree with you 100% on the issue at hand. #1, if you can carry in public, a public building should be the same. #2, if safety is somehow a concern, I dunno know, maybe they feel you'll somehow snag on a book or something, then a lockbox is the only reasonable alternative. Whatever, have a good time at the weenie roast k?

John,
Thanks for the clarification.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
So what happens if you go there unarmed and ask about checking a gun in? Do they still call the cops? If they do, then when the cops arrive you have no gun for him to register, but he still has to make the stupid trip to the library. You can always claim you were merely looking for information about the subject and not really asking to check your gun in.

What is the penalty for not checking your gun in?

------------------
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by TAZ (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
Part of the goal is to MAKE them enforce this assinine law. To MAKE them take their extorted tax dollars and spend them by sending the police to disarm law-abiding citizens. This will reduce their resources for REAL criminal calls.

When we talk to the media we say, "Today the police spent $20/hr/LEO to disarm 25 law-abiding people at the Gilbert, Arizona libraries, and reduced their effective CRIME fighting force buy such and such a percent in order to do this. Based on these figures and an average of two LEO per disamament and 3/4 hour for each (this includes drive time), we figure that the Gilbert tax payers spent $750 dollars on wages, plus the cost of gas, and vehicle maintanence, just today, pursuing law abiding citizens, and empowering criminals. Even at 10 law-abiding patrons being disarmed a day, the cost of this program runs $117,000.00 that should be going to prosecuting or pursuing REAL criminals per year."

Or somthing like that. :D

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
Has the news media made an appearance? Has there been an article in the paper? Maybe I could read the paper on a website. Hang in there guys. If I were there I would also participate. Don't let AZ become CA without a fight. Jerry
 
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