Arisaka
- Thread starter MasterGagne
- Start date
Battle Captured
Rare, but not unheard of. The British bought over 500,000 mixed Arisaka Rifles from Japan for use by T. E. Lawrence's (AKA Lawrence of Arabia) Arab Army use in WWI. Yours possibly fell into Turkish hands and got re-stamped.
I gather from your previous postings that it was assumed to be a mid-war production model. But who knows?
Rare, but not unheard of. The British bought over 500,000 mixed Arisaka Rifles from Japan for use by T. E. Lawrence's (AKA Lawrence of Arabia) Arab Army use in WWI. Yours possibly fell into Turkish hands and got re-stamped.
I gather from your previous postings that it was assumed to be a mid-war production model. But who knows?
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tahunua001
New member
not likely with a type 99. TE Lawrence predated the type 99.
Aw, Tahunua, you spoiled a good story about how Lawrence was really a Samurai who freed the Middle East from ISIS by wielding an Arisaka captured by the Americans after WWII. Boy, time machines all over the place! Take that Einstein!
And the Turks used a lot of different rifles, but Type 99's were not among them.
Jim
And the Turks used a lot of different rifles, but Type 99's were not among them.
Jim
tahunua001
New member
but Jim, Samarais don't use guns
Gunplummer
New member
looks like a "First quality" circle stamp that was not held correctly when stamped. Is it a chrome bore?
Dragonflydf
New member
all Type 99s have chrome bores.
I confess to ignorance. What is a "first quality" stamp on an Arisaka? When was it applied and on what basis? That looks like a fairly late rifle, and the ground "mum" indicates it was one of many thousands taken from depots in Japan after the end of the war. And, yes, all Type 99 barrels were chrome plated almost to the end.
Jim
Jim
crazy charlie
New member
Suggest you go to the Surplus Rifle Forum for information. They have a section on Japanese rifles and the folks on that forum are very knowledgeable.
Gunplummer
New member
All type 99's do not have chrome bores. A "First quality" stamp was a simple circle used by inspectors. Although records were kept, clerical things started to fall apart later in the war. Judging by the look of the wood and the type 99 stamped on the receiver, I would not say that the rifle was made that late in the war. There is no end to the weird stamps found on Arisakas. I had many with mismatched stamps on the serial numbers. I had some that made it into service with no serial numbers at all. Some rifles were reworked and had new matching numbers added under the stamped out original numbers. These rifles really had ordnance stamps all over them. After late 1943, just about anything would go out the door and did. As for the "Defaced MUM", nobody really knows the real story behind that. There are several stories floating around, but no real solid information was ever turned up.
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Dragonflydf
New member
What series ? the only type 99s without chrome bores were very late production. I looked at my 3 Type 99s and none have that marking.
MasterGagne
Inactive
It's a Series 6 Nagoya it's serial number is 19492 Whuch makes it pretty early for that series, it's got the mounts for the anti-aircraft wings on the rear sight and the lug for the mono-pod. It's in pretty good shape overall and it's one of the nicer ones I've seen. I was just curious about the mark because it just seems out of place but matches the patina on the rifle
It is chrome lined in the barrel... It's like a mirror in there, way brighter than any of my modern rifles
It is chrome lined in the barrel... It's like a mirror in there, way brighter than any of my modern rifles
tahunua001
New member
if that was just an off center circle punch it would be uniformly transitioning from deep to shallow indentation. it wouldn't cut the edges out and leave the center intact. that looks to me like an intentional crescent.
Hi, Gunplummer,
I sure agree about "weird stamps" but I had never heard or read about a "first quality" mark, and have a hard time reconciling it with a mass production operation in wartime. Would that rifle have been issued to some special unit, or reserved for rifle marksmanship competition or for a presentation piece?
I don't think there is much doubt about the ground crests. The "mum" is not the symbol of Japan, like the U.S. eagle. It was and is the personal symbol of the emperor. As part of his desire to keep the emperor as a figurehead to pacify the Japanese, MacArthur allowed the Japanese workers in the arms depots to remove the emperor's symbol from material that was to be turned over to the Allies, thus avoiding the disgrace and loss of face which would have resulted from its being in foreign hands.
Of course, when GI's realized that a ground "mum" indicated a rifle from a depot, disproving their stories about capturing the rifle in hand-to-hand combat with a Japanese general, they concocted all kinds of stories to explain it.
The most fanciful was told to me by a vet. He had captured his rifle in vicious fighting in the jungle (of a recruiting station in Pennsylvania). No sooner had he come home than the FBI came to his door and took the rifle; when they brought it back, the crest had been ground. It seems that Harry Truman personally kept track of every Japanese rifle brought back and wanted to make sure the "mum" was ground off, so he had the FBI round them all up and grind the crests. And, just think; he had time to be president, too. I really think the guy expected me to believe that nonsense, but I just smiled and left.
Jim
I sure agree about "weird stamps" but I had never heard or read about a "first quality" mark, and have a hard time reconciling it with a mass production operation in wartime. Would that rifle have been issued to some special unit, or reserved for rifle marksmanship competition or for a presentation piece?
I don't think there is much doubt about the ground crests. The "mum" is not the symbol of Japan, like the U.S. eagle. It was and is the personal symbol of the emperor. As part of his desire to keep the emperor as a figurehead to pacify the Japanese, MacArthur allowed the Japanese workers in the arms depots to remove the emperor's symbol from material that was to be turned over to the Allies, thus avoiding the disgrace and loss of face which would have resulted from its being in foreign hands.
Of course, when GI's realized that a ground "mum" indicated a rifle from a depot, disproving their stories about capturing the rifle in hand-to-hand combat with a Japanese general, they concocted all kinds of stories to explain it.
The most fanciful was told to me by a vet. He had captured his rifle in vicious fighting in the jungle (of a recruiting station in Pennsylvania). No sooner had he come home than the FBI came to his door and took the rifle; when they brought it back, the crest had been ground. It seems that Harry Truman personally kept track of every Japanese rifle brought back and wanted to make sure the "mum" was ground off, so he had the FBI round them all up and grind the crests. And, just think; he had time to be president, too. I really think the guy expected me to believe that nonsense, but I just smiled and left.
Jim
Gunplummer
New member
A circle punch held at an angle on a radius will give you something like that. I don't know when the "First quality " stamps started. I had a couple Type 30's but I really could not say if any of them had it or not. It is a real common mark on the Type 38's, no matter what arsenal they came from. Because of that, I assume it was an official mark and not just some worker's ID stamp.
I have to agree with you James K. If I had $20 for every "sniper rifle" that someone tried to sell me that "Dad" brought back, I would have quit working years ago. The MUM thing is weird. There are thousands of 6.5's with the MUM. I am guessing they came from China. I used to buy 6.5x50 surplus ammo that was made in the 50's in China. It was probably made on the original machinery. I can remember buying a carbine stock about 20 years ago that was also allegedly Chinese surplus. Who knows where this stuff pops up from. I had about 40-50 rounds of 6.5 FMJ ammo with a KYNOCH (Spelling?) headstamp.
I have to agree with you James K. If I had $20 for every "sniper rifle" that someone tried to sell me that "Dad" brought back, I would have quit working years ago. The MUM thing is weird. There are thousands of 6.5's with the MUM. I am guessing they came from China. I used to buy 6.5x50 surplus ammo that was made in the 50's in China. It was probably made on the original machinery. I can remember buying a carbine stock about 20 years ago that was also allegedly Chinese surplus. Who knows where this stuff pops up from. I had about 40-50 rounds of 6.5 FMJ ammo with a KYNOCH (Spelling?) headstamp.
tahunua001
New member
I recall reading that a large number of the chinese captures were converted to 7.62x39 and depending where they were done essentially looked like a bolt action SKS when they were done.