Argentine 09 Mauser

[hhunter318]

I was given an Argentine 09 action recently by a friend of my dad's. Mauser Modelo Argentino 1909; Deutsche Waffen-Und Muntitionsfabriken Berlin on the receiver. All matching serial numbers on the bolt, barrel, and receiver. All of the proof marks are there. Not really interested in value as I took the barrel off of the receiver for a new rifle build. I'll be replacing the wing safety with a Winchester M70 style 3-position safety and the trigger. My question is what caliber? I'm thinking of something more unique like maybe a 7x57 Ackley Imp. or a 280 Ackley Imp. or a 284 Win? As you can see, I'm a fan of the 7mm family. I'm aware of the cost of custom dies and the like. Any other cool calibers come to mind? I dont really want to open up the extractor for magnum bolt faces.

Thanks for any input.

 

[taylorce1]

I don't have any to recommend it all depends on what you want. If it were my rifle I’d probably do something in .270, .30-06 or .35 Whelen. If I were to do a 7x57 I wouldn’t AI it as I’d have the rifle marked .275 Rigby just for fun. You should read the stuff on Mauser actions at this link.

Whatever you decide please build a classy looking rifle on that action. You need to build the 1909 into a hunting rifle, please don’t put some heavy barrel and thumbhole stock on it. I’ll post a few pictures I’ve collected of 1909 rifles that I drool over from time to time.

1909 in 9.3X62

1909 in 7x57

I’ve got a few more I can dig up later, but I think you get the idea.

 

[hhunter318]

My intentions for this rifle are strictly a classy light sporter. Something I can pass down to my kids one day. With that in mind I was thinking mild recoil. The 284 win. is sounding good. By no means unheard of, but not everybody has one.

And also, when looking for a trigger, which mauser do I go by? Sp m98k? Any standard 98? I can't find any for the 09 specifically.

 

[Scorch]

I like 7X57, like taylorce, but a 284 sounds sexy. Real wood is the best looking stock you can put on a rifle, and spend the extra $ to get good wood, like the 9.3X62 taylorce is torturing us with.

Standard M98 parts fit the 1909 Argentine.

And let's see some pics as you get going on it, please.

 

[taylorce1]

I think if you take your time and research your build you will have a fine rifle. I don't know your idea of what you want or are willing to pay for the work. However I'd start with the action first. If you can afford it blue printed and polished by someone like Saterlee Arms. It will be very expensive but worth the money in the long run. A lot of times people get hung up on the wood but metal work is just as important check out these pics of a Mini Mauser:

The thing about your chambering choice take your time to make the decision. What if your kids who you plan to pass this down to decide not to become reloaders? You want to build this rifle to pass down, and .284 ammunition while not impossible to find it is difficult.

 

[taylorce1]

Here are some more pictures:

The finished product:

 

[Slamfire]

No one like to hear this, but I do not recommend converting these pre WW1 rifles to anything.

People confuse the beautiful machining with quality metallurgy. These actions were built out of plain carbon steels, the steels and the heat treatments were made under inconsistent primitive process controls.

You can spend a lot of money on one of the receivers just to find that the cartridge you are using exceeds the strength of the material and creates excessive headspace.

Why not spend that money on a post WWII receiver that is made of alloy materials, like 4140? Even post WWII alloys are going to have twice the yield and ultimate strength of pre WW1 plain carbon steels.

 

[taylorce1]

Slamfire you are correct about the metalurgy of the 1909 action but it can be still used for a custom build.

D'Arcy Echols said this about working with Mauser actions under the link I posted in my first comment.

Twice in one day, Hand me the flack jacket! While attending the School of trades in Denver, We were told that any 98 rebarreled to a modern caliber should be re-carborized .030 to .040 deep so the surface hardness was around 36-40 RW C. The bolt a few point higher 40-44. They converted more than just two or three. Later when I opened my own shop I built 2 rifles chambered for 270 Win. and fell into the mind set that I now refer to as "how can you re-heat an action if you don't have a clue as to what it's made from" One was a 1909 and one a Radom. I had the rifles back in my shop years later and both had been set back enough that I had to set back the barrels the required amount clean up the lug seats and then sent both actions in to be recarborized and have not had a problem since(REMEMBER SAME REAMERS, SAME GAGES, SAME RIFLE). Do you know of anybody that has a 270 that won't try to get 3100 fps with a 130gr bullet? Ray sure won't leave the 404 at original speeds. The number of rifles I have had in my shop for some sort of repair or restoration that have set back is long indeed. This list would include the hallowed 98 square bridge actions, vz-24, 1909, 1908, and one FN in the white straight from the factory that I failed to check with the rockwell tester. I chambered the FN to 300 Win mag and it set back .015 in less than 200 rounds. It has since been hardened and to my knowledge has not move to the rear at all.Take it for what it's worth.

I have every 98 that I now use annealed dead soft, do 90% of the machine work that is required. Then it is sent in to be re-carborized as described and then finished up. Some 98 actions are probably OK to use as is the 1935 being one of them. But why take the chance and why waste all those end mills on an action that is glass hard on the surface or have to eat the repair when it shows up back in your hands.

I did have two 1909 action destroyed to get an idea of the steel composition. The results were as predicted and I now use the 1909 for any project that requires a 98 in a standard length Magnum, no I don't use them for the 375 H&H or similar lenght round as the action just gets to sloppy for my taste. Russell Wilkin the shop manager at H&H (ever hear of them?)requires all bolt rifles built on the 98 actions to be re-hardened. Go figure. Got to give my girl a bath!

 

[CTS]

Those are some fine looking rifles there guys. I have been looking for an Argentine Mauser to sporterize. They seem to be hard to come by in the original 7x57 chambering. I think that is what I would leave it in if I could find a good specimen at a decent price. I like the .275 Rigby idea. That would surely raise some eyebrows.

 

[hhunter318]

I was thinking about having the receiver color case hardened. Bone charcoal method. Turnbull maybe.

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfire you are correct about the metalurgy of the 1909 action but it can be still used for a custom build.

D'Arcy Echols said this about working with Mauser actions under the link I posted in my first comment.

I wish he had posted the composition and quality of the steel in those 1909's that he had analyzed.

Every time I find a reference to those period metals, it is always “slag and impurities, low quality material” . The science of metals moved extremely fast, not as fast as the semi conductor revolution, but the change was fast. Phase diagrams were just being created in the 1890’s, nickel steel was cutting edge, and the production controls were “eye of newt and toe of frog”. I get into arguments all the time because people who love the fine finishes and fine machining of those early guns don’t want to hear that they might be less than perfect.

By the time you get into the 20’s metallurgy is well defined, by the time you get to the 40’s it is a mature field. Alloy steels from the late 30’s and 40’s are just so much better than the plain carbon stuff from the beginning of the century.

No one today would make such an expensive part, with so much machining and labor, from materials that today we use as rebar. But that is what those old receivers are made from, materials so low grade but so cheap that it is used as rebar.

 

[taylorce1]

Slamfire,

Contact D'Arcy Echols by email he might just tell you about the composition of the 1909's. He seems like a good guy, and he'll probably answer your questions to satisfaction.

I was thinking about having the receiver color case hardened

Sounds cool, but Turnbull is expensive. I'd rather spend the money on polishing the action and stock. A deep rust blue will look awesome as well.