Are you guys serious?

L

Little-e

New member
After reading and enjoying this forum for the past few months, I've seen a wide variety of opinions on subjects such as registration, confiscation, abuse of power, fighting back (literally), civil war, concentration camps, and others along those lines.

Responses I've seen range from "I'll shoot the first one I see," to "It will never happen."

What I'd like to know is what makes you so strong in your opinion, regardless of your answer. Why are you convinced the BATmen are donning their suits, or on the other hand, what do you believe would stop them?

I find myself with strong opinions on some issues but most of them I feel I don't see well enough into the future to say for sure. I do know what my reaction would be, but that is another thread...
 
Read the Declaration of Independence. Read the Constitution, paying particular attention to the Bill of Rights. Then read a little history about what the English gov't was doing to the Colonists. Then look at some of the unconstitutional, immoral laws that our gov't has passed. Our current gov't has put restrictions on our rights that King George would never have dreamed of, much less tried to implement. Had he tried enactment of some of the laws that exist currently, he would have had to deal with not only a revolution in the colonies, but a revolution in England-with only a tiny percentage of the entire population being on his side.
Are we serious? No, we're so far beyond that that "serious" doesn't even begin to describe it. Try "deadly, implacable, committed, resolve", and you're just begininig to approach the ballpark in how we feel.

I will be a slave to nothing but physical reality.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
I hold the beliefs I do as strongly as I do mainly because what I see happening in Washington is an exact parallel of every government-perpetrated atrocity over the last several hundreds of years.

And I, for one, refuse to ignore it.

Perhaps it's the Irish in me (whoops, hyphenation!), perhaps it's just my bad attitude, but when I feel like I'm being forced into a corner, I hit back as hard as I can, in an appropriate manner. If the JBTs shoot, they'd better take me out immediately, or risk losing a lot of troops.

I harbor no illusions that I'm a badass who can single-handedly whip a platoon of thugs backed up by heavy equipment; but I can damn sure state that I will *attempt* to kill anyone who tries to kill me.

Coming back on topic, I see what's happening now because I know what happened before. Or, to repeat the cliché... those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Everything that's happening to gun owners now has been done before to other undesirables: demonization by the popular media, slow erosion of (natural or God-given, take your pick) rights, followed by a formal campaign of extinction. So far, we haven't gotten to that third step, but you can bet that we're heading that way. For example, Waco was a test of the public's willingness to believe what they were told, just like Kristallnacht. If the thugs had been surrounded by 1000 outraged gun owners, do you think we'd be sinking in the legislative quicksand that we're in now?

Frankly, I don't see that Joe and Mary Sixpack will wake up, as long as their door isn't the one being kicked in. Therefore, it's up to us to defend ourselves... and it's up to us to remember the lessons of history, and prevent the nightmares from coming again.

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"We are going to fight. We are going to be hurt.
But in the end, we will stand."
--Roland Deschain
 
Tyranny has been the historical rule, and Individual Liberty the exception. Any individual liberty that we now enjoy in this country was paid for with the blood of patriots. Once these rights are gone, only blood will buy them back, if at all.

Since the core beliefs needed to operate a Constitutional Democracy and promote Individual Autonomy have been slowly erroding away in our society, it is very likely that our government will revert back to its original position: Leviathan.

Even the Roman Empire fell.
 
Its not just guns or individual liberties. My God, there is no rule of law any longer..rather there are 2 sets of law for the 2 classes of people.
The government by passes law, intentionally lies, conspires with enemies, intentionally weakens us, promotes divisivness, confiscates property, steals masses of land, etc ad nauseum.

This is one of the most corrupt and venal governments in history.

This would make a laughable fictional novel

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
You have asked if we are serious. I am serious as are those that have made other statements. Why should we stand by and allow corrupt politicians and their agents distroy this country?

We have been lied to, people have been murdered, property seized by these thugs and we are to just take it. Never. Resistance to thuggish goverment is a nobel thing to do.
We do not wish to form a new type of goverment but want to restore the Constitution to where it was at the start. limit the size of all goverments and limit the powers of those goverments.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Nathaniel Greene was a Minuteman ~ We have the same DNA (family) and therefore his blood and anger towards oppression course through my veins as well.

I have enough hardware to supply a few folks that can't afford it, but are damn sure willing to stand beside me when the time comes...
 
Little-e:

In answer to your question, I believe most members of this forum are very similar to you--in that on some things we all have things that we believe with 100% conviction, while on others, we don't know and are gaining information.

So when I see a topic that pushes one of my buttons, I'm going to post in no uncertain terms. On topics that are interesting or of no great importance to me--I'll read, but generally won't post. Therefore, when one takes the time to reply to a topic, those are the people who have a more expressed opinion on the subject and consequently the opinions expressed will tend to be resolute.

There's my opinion, given to you because I'm deeply interested in your topic--naw, my golf game this afternoon fell through.
 
Fifteen years ago I took an oath to "Support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic". I take that extremely seriously. The Politicians who have subverted and perverted our country I consider to be domestic enemies of our constitution.

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TJS
 
Little-e, that's a fair question. And of course, the answer 'depends'.

Sure, some of the folks I've 'talked' to on TFL are not my cup of tea - wouldn't want to take them home to meet my wife and kids. OTOH, most of these folks are very high quality human beings - they think, they consider other opinions, they know why they believe what they believe, they know their subject, they use a reasonable historical perspective, they have courage, and ... they give a damn. Which is much more than I can say for the majority of the 275mm souls who currently inhabit the U.S.

Consider also that, generally, what we post here stays on TFL a very long time. And, what we've posted may not reflect that we may have been in a very foul, or perhaps a very 'up' mood. Unless you edit your words, they are what you felt at the time.

But more to your point, I will echo what Lucas said. On some issues I am convinced of certain 'truths'. For example, do our 'friends' at HCI and other groups intend to 'take away the guns' someday? You bet your sweet AR-15 they do! Why do I believe that so strongly? Because, often with the help of many folks here, I have been able to witness their strategy by perusing hundreds of web sites that document the destruction of this freedom. Everything from Congressional web sites, to anti-self defense sites, personal RKBA sites, the NRA, and on and on. Add to that reading many books, court cases, and many, many personal discussions with people on both sides of the firearms' debate. After a while, it would take an idiot to fail to connect all of those dots. Remember ... you're not paranoid if they really are after you! ;)

My boss once told me that when you're 20, and your gut tells you something ... it's probably better to ignore it. But, when you're 40 and your gut tells you something ... well, then you'd better listen. I'm over 40, and I have a very, very strong feeling in my gut that the RKBA is in dire straits. And, that the RKBA may indeed be a, and perhaps 'the' linch pin for America's freedoms. Lose the RKBA, and everything else we hold dear may very well be at risk.

No, I'm not interested in joining a militia. At least, not this weekend, anyway. ;) And, I also find some of the remarks on this board a bit strong sometimes. Or at least, perhaps intemperate on the Internet. But, I don't find many of them to be as radical as I might have before I had read everything I've read and considered over the past year.

It is easier to adapt to the future, and sometimes to see it coming, if one is not too judgmental about the possibilities. The inconceivable sometimes becomes real, and the historical events we can't imagine repeating ... have a nasty habit of coming around again.

Good luck with your investigation of these philosophies. It is a worthwhile stretch.

Regards from AZ.
 
From: Ivan8883 7-1-99-1040 PMEDT I second these other fine patriots in their outrage at our very corrupt and venal system. The Federal Government today makes King Georges Boys look like kindergarten Kids. In some ways ,our struggles against this corrupt g0vernment will be much tougher than it was for the Founders against British rule. The Federal government has proven itself completely ruthless against not only American citizens(Waco, Ruby Ridge, countless attacks on individual rights ),but also against foreign nations as well( wild missile attacks against Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq,and latest Nato brutality against Serbia) This is not the government under which I served for three years (US Army)
 
Little-e: Am I serious? Best way to explain that is with a story of my life. I'm an accountant. Used to do a lot of income taxes until I could not stand it anymore. The stupidity of the individuals I did returns for just got to me. They never looked at how much tax they paid, they only looked at whether they got a refund or not. Most people in this country have no idea how much they are paying. I sat down one time and did an analysis on my situation and how much tax I actually paid for the year. Ended up doing the same thing for quite a few people. What I found was is that the average person in the US is currently paying 56% of what they earn in taxes. Now I can hear you saying, but wait I only pay 15% or 28% for federal taxes. Then lets look a little closer. There's state taxes, Social Security taxes, property taxes, tax on the gas you buy, sales tax, tax on your phone bill, taxes on your airline tickets, car license and registration.... these are just the taxes that are up front... then you get into the hidden taxes. Every product you buy contains in the cost of that product taxes. The manufacture passes along all of their taxes to the consumer... Would it surprise you to learn that on the average we pay 24% in hidden taxes on everything we buy? OK... so you add up all of these taxes and the average person is paying 56%. I got to asking myself what is the difference between this and slavery? Not much.

I always figured that things could be reversed. That if I worked hard enough in the political area that we could elect people who would finally listen and help to reduce this burden. Up to this point my focus was strictly on taxes. Then a couple of years ago I went to purchase a shot gun to take my dog out hunting, since I had just moved out in the country. I used to be an avid hunter and shooter when I was younger, but had given it up back in the late 60's. What I found I could not believe. In order to purchase a gun, it took me over 4 weeks and $78 more than the cost of the gun. In addition I was made to feel like a criminal for doing so. I asked "How can this be"? Don't we have the 2nd amendment? So I started off on a search to find out what was going on. The first thing I found was that our court system had ruled that the 2nd only protected the rights of the states to maintain a militia. I could not believe this. This was not what I had learned in grade school.

Over the next couple of years I studied the constitution and every piece of literature that I could get my hands on from our founding, commentators, law review articles... everything. What I found out scared the crap out of me. I found the truth. That our government was corrupt. Almost all of what our federal government was doing is unconstitutional. I found the reason for the 2nd amendment and that was to give us (the people) a last means of defense against the government should it ever turn to tyranny. Well it has and it is this very government who is trying to redefine the meaning of the 2nd and to take that right away. Why? The only answer I can come up with on this one that makes any sense scares me.

Well forgive me for getting upset, but I grew up in the cowboy way. When someone spits on me I don't turn the other cheek, I get even. I'm truthful and honest to a fault, but I will not abide those who are not. I'm easy going and will let most things roll off my back, but when riled I won't stop until justice has been served. This is the point I'm at now.

What am I doing about it? Trying to educate others as to what has happened and what is going on. My mind is set and I will defend our freedoms to the last. The 2nd first, because it is the one that keeps our government in check. It gives them something to think about every time they think of taking another freedom away. I am however fighting for all our freedoms, but the 2nd has to be intact first.

I have worked hard all of my life and I don't have squat to show for it. Most of what I have earned has gone to my government to be redistributed to others. I don't have a lot of time left in this world, so my attitude is that I will make a difference before I go. So you see as a slave I don't have to much to loose. If I can't regain my freedom, then what the heck I might as well go out in a blaze of glory.... Don't get me wrong, I'm not ready to take up arms as of yet. But educating others, civil disobedience, jury nullification is now how I live my life. I'm taking back my freedoms and to hell with anyone who says I can't. Hey, it's the cowboy way... live your life clean and fair, but never let anyone push you around.

Richard
 
Perhaps I am one of the folks guilty of the occasional "intemperate" postings here :) I do so purposely. The pro-tyranny forces at work in the country need to be told bluntly that there will be bloodshed before their goals are accomplished. They need to be told that there are rights that will not be infringed without a fight. I consider it my civic duty to tell them and I do so both on the net and in personal conversation.
 
Bookkie,
Well, pardner, you just won ya another friend of the "cowboy way".

All,

I spent 20 years in the Air Force, largely for the retirement benefits - one of which was free medical care for my wife and me for life.

I retired in San Antonio in part to be near Wilford Hall, the "flagship" hospital of the U.S. Air Farce (not a typo!). Wilford Hall accepts civilians to maintain its status as a level-3 trauma center! But I can't get in!

Oh, I still get my FREE medical care - now for the "bargain" price of $460/year. But I can't get into Wilford Hall because " all the retiree space available slots have been taken."

((I'm having trouble typing this without slamming my fingers through the keyboard!)

A Congressman (mercifully I have forgotten his name) actually stood on the floor of the House and laughed at military servicemen (and women)! When we complained how we were being screwed, he laughed! Then said, "Hey, show it to me in writing. You can't."

(short pause while I quit swearing.........)

Am I mad at my government? Do I trust them not to "infringe" upon the Second Amendment? HAH! Try to buy any weapon without damned near giving them the title to your "first born"!!

Did you realize that until the cutesy little Repbulican revolution of (when?) 1994(?) our Congresscritters did not have to live under the laws they passed? They "exempted" themselves from many of the socially-required laws that crippled small businesses.

Mom and Pop enterprises collapsed under the burden of Equal Opportunity and the building modifications required by the Americans with Disabilities Act, quotas by skin color, religion, ethnicity, etc.

Congress exempted themselves from these and many other "social experiments".....

I am angry. I am past angry. These laws were NOT passed by Democrats OR Republicans. These laws, and their preferential treatments for law makers, were passed by Democrats AND Republicans.

Then, when Americans began to wise up and rise up the law makers staged a little "pillow fight" and made "everything okay". OKAY? My rosy red rectum!

Remember how "good" everything is the next time you try buy ammunition or (!gasp!) try to buy a gun! You used to be able to do that at any hardware store - all you needed was money.

Gotta quit. I'll bust a gut or a keyboard.
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(a short time later)
And why is the Second Amendment so important to me?

Well, we have seen our federal government:
- exceed their authority;
- willfully and wantonly mis-interpret the Constitution;
- create truly disgusting legislation;
- treat themselves as rulers separate from and superior to "we the people",;
- steal our land and other resources;
- tax us to a level better called "extortion";
- waste our resources on incredibly stupid projects;
- send our young people off to fight and die in unnecessary and frequently unjust wars;
- break virtually every promise they have made, etc. etc.

(I am not an historian. I'm sure the better informed folks among us could lengthen this list and give a bzillion examples of each transgression.)

Our federal government has done all this while we have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Once they restrict that Right into oblivion, they will know the people of America will have absolutely NO recourse. There will be no stopping them. We won't be able to vote them out.

The government, in the form of the two major parties, selects who can run for public office. Then the same two parties rule us.

I live in hope that Americans will realize how they have been mis-treated and rebel at the ballot box. I live in fear that the only two other options are tyranny or revolution.

Either way, my friends, I keep my guns. I explain to my children what's happening and why guns are important. I will do what I can to keep the spirit of our forefathers alive.

End of sermon. Sorry it's so long.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 02, 1999).]
 
What do "they" want? Well, I once was at a hearing which was also attended by a very attractive young lady who was on the anti-gun side. I was single at the time and after things broke up I approached her, thinking a more extended discussion might be carried on in "more intimate" surroundings.

We spoke briefly, and then I asked, "What would make you happy?" Her pretty face twisted into a mask of hate and she replied, "I won't be happy until every one of you gun crazies is shot down in the streets and the gutters run with your blood!"

As you might guess, I gave up ideas about a closer relationship.

Jim
 
Nicely put Dennis, I unfourtnatly find little to disagree with what you said, enough is enough! hopefully the masses will wake up and get off their backside and see what's going on.
 
Personally, I find it refreshing to have found so many others with similar feelings about the current state of affairs in Washington D.C.

However, I came here by way of extensive research on the subject of conspiracy. My research uncovered the darkest most sinister plot to overthrow our Liberty loving way of life. The frightening facts revealed several decades of erosion of our great Constitution, a huge intrusive monolithic bureacratic machine, and every single signpost to slavery a civilized people could bear. And it continues, like a glacier moving across a mountain range, destroying everything in its path, leaving only bits and pieces of what was.

Faced with the continuous need to answer the questions of how?, what? and why?, the answers keep coming up suggest its just a matter of "when?". We as law abiding citizens of this once great republic, sit beneath the shadow of this foot which is poised to make another impression in the sand beneath us.

Freedom is a serious thing. And those who smell a stench in the air, smell the decay of our once great Nation. They begin to look for the cause of this stench, and what they uncover (or will uncover) will make a serious person out them, serious about saving this precious freedom. When faced with danger it is our human instinct to protect and defend ourselves, and our loved ones. We grasp for the tools in which to ward off our enemy, and we clench the 2nd Amendment in our hands. We will never let it go.
 
Thanks to everyone that replied. I wrote this for two reasons:
1. To have people think about why they believe what they do.
2. To present a lackadasical attitude in the attempt to upset people. By doing this my hope was to cause people take action (legal) and take our country back.

I know alot of us are already doing what we can but we need everyone to do it. It doesn't matter what pro gun group you join but join something and work to help them.

I do feel that we have lost control and it is going to get worse. I refuse to live as a subject and we are not far from that now. We must rally together and make a statement while we can because before you know it, our rally will be called a conspiracy. We will only have one course of action at that point and and times will surely be dark.
 
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