Are US Gun Manufacturers lagging behind the Europeans

F

Flashman

New member
It seems to me US gun manufacturers are lagging seriously behind their European counterparts. In handguns, the Glock polymer pistol was leap forward in technological development as well as others. I believe SIG or HK have adjustable pistol handles (i.e., replaceable and different sized backstraps), etc. They certainly changed the game on semi-auto reliability. Rifle technology has changed as well. The Blaser, SIG and Steyrs have bolts that directly connect to the barrel eliminating many problems with accuracy. Their stocks are free floated from the factory and have separate defined bedding fixtures voiding the need for custom work like glass and pillar bedding of stocks. I am not as familiar with shotguns, but Beretta and Benelli lead the way with semi-auto shotguns, also with a quantum leap on reliability over US semi-auto shotguns. Beretta leads the way on mass production technology of two barrel shotguns.

In the US, Winchester largely relies on rifles and shotguns developed before WW II and WW I. Remington is basically the same. Browning has little new to contribute. Ruger has done some innovative things but mainly manufactures variations on theme--improved versions of old standbys--however, has done it quite well and with much improved manufacturing technology. When is a US manufacturer going to make a truly new rifle like a Blaser. I like to buy American, not guns from the former Third Reich (the Swiss were in bed with them).

[This message has been edited by Flashman (edited May 13, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Browning has little new to contribute. [/quote]

Let's give them credit for one thing: they introduced the BOSS, which is a significant technological advancement IMHO. Browning didn't invent the muzzle tuner, but they were the first to put it on regular production rifles.
 
Yes, the Europeans definatly lead the way when it comes to firearms development, but is that so bad? If I could have it my way, we Americans would be the undisputed champion of arms production, but for whatever reason they are groundbreakers.

Why are you concerned that the Former 3rd Reich countries are making the best guns today? The key word being "Former". The Nazis are pretty much extinct, with maybe a couple of senile, old men that pi$$ their pants and dont know what day of the week it is.

Glock, HK,and Sig all have brilliant people working for and produce excellent quality products. If it works, why not buy it?
 
Perhaps the mass market firearm makers in the US are not up to the 'kraut stuff, but i would argue that the custom shops are second to nobody. (atleast in the 1911 form)

If you want to think about it another way, everybody is still building automobiles that are basically the same in operation as they were initially designed. But you wouldn't quite compare a F-150 to a Model-T would you?

Would you compare a Remington Rand 1911 to a Kimber Pro-Carry? I wouldn't.

~USP
 
I raised this issue with respects to Russian firearms and the West.

Regarding Western Europe, most of their guns incorporate new materials, but don't offer much else. The Glock, while not the first to mass produce polymers (HK earns that award with the VP70), is basically a modified Browning tilting barrel design. The firing mechanism is taken from the cheaper 25 cal pistols.

Western European rifles are based on time proven actions. They're either gas operated (like the AK, M1/M14) or gas impinged like the M16.

The folks who really lead us are the Russians with the AN-94. Mind you, this doesn't mean they're better equipped or could wup our troops. It's still a matter of strategy, tactics and when it comes down to the individual, cunning and marksmanship.
 
4V50 Gary>The Glock, while not the first to mass produce polymers (HK earns that award with the VP70)<

Remington's Nylon 66 rifles beat that.


AN-94? What the heck is THAT? Details, please, I'm dyin' to know.

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Smith and Wesson leads the firearms industry in ankle-grabbing, and is developing a commanding lead in whining technology, too. Colt was developing significant advances in paint jobs on revolvers, as well as great leaps forward in inflated price tags and shoddy build quality, however their perfection of "Having other people make better versions of your own flagship autopistol than you do" technology is what will probably drive them into recievership. There are staggering parallels between the current state of the U.S. firearms industry and the U.S. auto industry circa '73-'86...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Tamara, you DO hava a way with words! Succinct and to the point. :D

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If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.
 
I would take issue with the comment there are only a few old Nazi's floating around. Neo-nazi's are a strong movement in Germany and you only have to follow the news to see what is going on in Austria, the birthplace of der Furhrer.

What the central Europeans have done is to bring reliability to pistols. You only have to read Jeff Cooper's columns in G&A in the 60's and 70's to see many questions concerned reliability issues with semi-auto's, including, most notably, the 1911. MOA rifles were only benchrest rifles in those days but are not unusual with factory rifles today, particularly of the European extraction.

I would like to see real innovation on part of an American manufacturer. Ruger is perhaps the best in this regards but I don't see it doing anything outside of refinements. I am really interested in a new American rifle. Something one doesn't have to tune; that by its design, it is inherently accurate and reliable.

[This message has been edited by Flashman (edited May 11, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashman:
I would take issue with the comment there are only a few old Nazi's floating around. Neo-nazi's are a strong movement in Germany and you only have to follow the news to see what is going on in Austria, the birthplace of der Furhrer.

[This message has been edited by Flashman (edited May 11, 2000).][/quote]

Youre statement is insulting, sir! As a matter of fact, there are more neo-nazis in the US than in Germany and Austria combined.

And don't tell that you believe what the media feed you about events here in Austria. Come here and see for yourself. There are no parades of neo-nazis; the only people out on the streets are socialists of green and democratic type, who are sorry to have lost their 30 year grip on power, and would like to get rid of legal gun ownership.

You might like to check out Jeff Coopers' position in his recent commentaries.
 
To emphasize Gunters point, Joerg Haider, the professed Nazi sympathizer, was forced to get out of Austrian politics and recently resigned from the Freedom Party. This came about because of extreme pressure both from inside Austria and Europe in general. Doesn't sound like Naziism is very much tolerated there.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashman:
It seems to me US gun manufacturers are lagging seriously behind their European counterparts. I believe SIG or HK have adjustable pistol handles (i.e., replaceable and different sized backstraps), etc.[/quote]

Ummmm...
The Colt 1911 has replaceable and different sized backstraps available from many manufacturers.
Not exactly a leap foward by the Europeans! ;)

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
E-mail hotshot_2000@hotmail.com
ICQ # 68806935

[This message has been edited by HS (edited May 12, 2000).]
 
HS:

1911 backstraps swappable without tools? And multiple ones included with each new firearm? Cool! Who's doing that?

Oh, wait, you mean high-dollar, aftermarket, 'some-gunsmithing-may-be-necessary' pieces... never mind... ;)

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
I am not bothered at all that we don't lead firearms development. I am much more bothered that we can't get many of the guns designed and manufactured overseas because of the draconian import laws.

-z
 
Gunter, don't be so sensitive. The US media runs stories on the Neo-Nazi movement in Germany fairly regularly, and long before the Haider incident in Austria. I don't know if there are more Neo-Nazi types or skinheads in the US, but I took issue with the comment about all there being left was a couple old Nazi's in Germany, that they were mostly extinct. I simply don't believe it. The belief system that spawned National Socialism didn't die in 1945. For example, although there is racial equality under the law in the US, it largely does not exist in many parts of this country. My point is the attitudes and values that fostered such groups as the Klu Klux Klan still exist even though the road to laws of racial equality began in the 1860's and were written up until recently (now they are being deconstructed). There are tens of millions of bigots in the US. Is the US free of hate groups and right wing extremists? Certainly not. In fact, the US has a history of committing a partially successful campaign of genocide. I doubt everything changed overnight in Germany. With regards to Jeff Cooper, he seems to be in love with anything German and championed the old regime in South Africa; he regularly laments its passing. His politics seem to me to be the proverbial three clicks right of Attila the Hun. That said, I like him. He can think for himself and doesn't care who likes it. I've told him what I think and he made an assuming retort. He is unique and a gentleman.
 
Flashman,

You are correct. Many high ranking Nazis were pardoned and entered back into national life. I don't think, however, that the majority of Germans and Austrians presently support Nazi ideals. Just like the majority of people in the US don't support the KKK or Aryan Nation likewise in Europe the white supremacista and facista are a minority. Nonetheless I see nothing wrong with calling attention to extremist whatever their agenda, be it fascism or communism.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
The Nazis of WW2 and current Neo-Nazis are not the same breed. The modern Nazis are pretty much racialists that like to drink beer, fight, and watch old tapes of Hitler. They do not share the socialist views and goals of the former regime, the Social Democrats and Greens take care of that.

The Nazis I was referring to are the old ones that may have actually taken part in genocidal activities. If I could help it, I would not want to put money into their pockets, but HK, Glock, and Sig are not them.

The hateful ideology spawned by Nazism is still alive in many places all over the world. It is ironically getting very popular in Russia, the one country Hitler wanted to destroy more than any other. The ideological beginnings of Nazism did not begin in Germany, but other parts of Europe, most notably England and France. They just ran with it the farthest in Germany.

I dont know if the current political situation in Austira is comprobable to the Neo-Nazism movement. If you've ever visited the Freedom party's webpage and read their stances on various issues, you will find that they are not that much different than the conservatives and libertarians here in America. It has been portrayed by the media as a revival of Nazism because the communist/socialist groups that are in power in Europe are scarred of an opposing group attaining power. Imagine if Austira were to form a goverment that allowed people the right of self-defence, let people keep more of what they earn instead of redistributing it into complicated social programs that keep the socialist in power, and actually had tough prisons that did not resemble country clubs in an effort to make society safer. This idea might catch on, the other Europeans might see how they are being screwed and demand a change. This is whats dangerous, not the location where Hitler was born.

Every country has bad and hateful elements to it and has history that they are not proud of (or should not be proud of). If you really want to spend your money in a moral way, you might want to boycott Chinese goods, because they are the ones who are oppressing millions of people today rather than 50 years ago.

And a possible answer to your origional question about why the Americans are lagging behind in arms development, maybe its because they are spending so much money on legal bills that could be better spent on research and development. You could add in that they might not be required by law to hire and retain x number of this minority, despite the fact that an individual might not be a good worker.

Maybe if we got rid of the destructive socialist aspects that hinder our country's progress that good old American ingenuity would kick in and we would start leading again.
 
You might also find this interesting: Of the poeple recognized as artists, 99% are opposed to the new (100 days old) Austrina Government. If political views are independant of artistic prowess, and about one third each of Austrians voted vor Socialists, Peoples and Freedom Parties, you would expect to see this division in the arts also.

Not so. The socialists have, in the past 30 years, supported only those artist who share their disruptive views. Otto Muehl, a man convicted of statutory rape among other things, called his defecating on the podium in front of university students "actionistic art". Jack Unterweger, convicted of murdering a prostitute, wrote some poetry while in jail, was released early and welcomed into the artistic community. A pensioned criminal investigator later proved his involvement in over a dozen murder cases, some in the US; Unterweger hanged himself in jail after his second conviction. Herrman Nitsch uses animal blood in his "actionistic arts events". These are only some examples of taxpayer supported "artists" in Austria.

After WWII, Austria had twice as many executions and convictions under denazification statutes as Germany. US science and technology profited by employing scientists who had worked under nazi rule in Germany...
 
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