are reloads +P
- Thread starter goochster
- Start date
jwrowland77
New member
No they're not. There is +P data out there to be found. One word: Lawyers.
chris in va
New member
The average reloader is not a professional and lacks the fancy factory machines that (usually) watch for consistency. Brass is all the same, powder charge and many other factors are automated and QC'ed on a regular basis.
We have the option to play with different powders, charges and bullet weights. Some guns don't work well with these experiments and the manufacturer voids the free warranty. You can still send it in but they will charge you for it.
We have the option to play with different powders, charges and bullet weights. Some guns don't work well with these experiments and the manufacturer voids the free warranty. You can still send it in but they will charge you for it.
+P is a label that ONLY applies to ammo pressure measured against SAAMI specs. It does not exist for all ammo, or all calibers, only for some specific ones.
And the reason you see warranties that say they don't cover reloads is very simple. The gunmaker has no control (and no idea) WHAT you are going to put in the handload. Therefore, they are not going to warranty damage caused by your reloads. Period.
As an extreme example, you could, put a blasting cap, or nitroglycerin inside a case, and fire it. Should the gun maker then be liable for your idiocy?
They put it in the warranty, no reloads, so they don't constantly have to keep going to court to prove they were not the ones at fault.
Its not that they don't think we can make safe ammo, they know we can. But they also know that someone who does not, will try to blame them, when they are not the ones who are at fault. SO, to protect themselves from the firearms versions of ambulance chasing lawyers, you get the blanket "no reloads" warranty coverage.
And the reason you see warranties that say they don't cover reloads is very simple. The gunmaker has no control (and no idea) WHAT you are going to put in the handload. Therefore, they are not going to warranty damage caused by your reloads. Period.
As an extreme example, you could, put a blasting cap, or nitroglycerin inside a case, and fire it. Should the gun maker then be liable for your idiocy?
They put it in the warranty, no reloads, so they don't constantly have to keep going to court to prove they were not the ones at fault.
Its not that they don't think we can make safe ammo, they know we can. But they also know that someone who does not, will try to blame them, when they are not the ones who are at fault. SO, to protect themselves from the firearms versions of ambulance chasing lawyers, you get the blanket "no reloads" warranty coverage.
so if I follow my lyman guide for my 9mm my loads really won't be of concern unless the starting grains might be light to operate the gun. I realize that if I loaded say a triple load and blew up my gun it really wouldn't or even expect the manufacturer to warranty the product BUT then there are those that abuse and would try and sue, They come from a different mold
One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+, sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is not. The pressure curve is exponential and it does not take much to shift that curve a tiny bit and create huge pressures. Humans don't think in exponential terms, so, they don't intuitively understand the risks with exponential processes.
I have met a number of nuts at the range who were bragging how their loads were several grains over max. Pity the poor gun manufacturer who designs their firearm to a load. All firearms are designed to a load, the pressures inside the chamber are converted from pounds per inch, to pounds, by taking into account the surface area. This load is based on industry agreements, that is SAAMI, which sets maximum cartridge pressures. The firearm is built around this, plus safety factors, and shipped out to a reloader who totally disregards pressure limits and assumes that the pressure curve reacts linearly to charge weight.
Then there are careful reloaders who have accidents. Since we are all human, all make errors, hey, it happens. In fact, if you have been noticing, factories make errors which occasionally blow up firearms. But, unlike the home reloader, they have the ability to test pressures, so the high pressure cartridges are due to process errors, not ignorance.
I sat across the breakfast table, on travel, from a guy who was an executive at Dan Wesson firearms. He said every pistol that came back blown up was due to reloads.
Something else that seemed to be totally ignored in the shooting community is the effect of fatigue. Sure the firearm can withstand a couple of high pressure loads, (if you are lucky), but overstressing the materials reduces the service life of the part. Overstressed parts will fatigue fracture sooner than non overstressed parts. I have posted in a couple of threads about this and generally the response is that no one believes in fatigue fracture failure. Everyone believes in the big badda boom, an overpressure condition that is large enough to blow the gun into pieces, but no one seems to believe that a part with an overstress history can fail with a standard load.
It can happen to guns because guns are not immune to the laws of physics nor to the physical properties of materials.
I have met a number of nuts at the range who were bragging how their loads were several grains over max. Pity the poor gun manufacturer who designs their firearm to a load. All firearms are designed to a load, the pressures inside the chamber are converted from pounds per inch, to pounds, by taking into account the surface area. This load is based on industry agreements, that is SAAMI, which sets maximum cartridge pressures. The firearm is built around this, plus safety factors, and shipped out to a reloader who totally disregards pressure limits and assumes that the pressure curve reacts linearly to charge weight.
Then there are careful reloaders who have accidents. Since we are all human, all make errors, hey, it happens. In fact, if you have been noticing, factories make errors which occasionally blow up firearms. But, unlike the home reloader, they have the ability to test pressures, so the high pressure cartridges are due to process errors, not ignorance.
I sat across the breakfast table, on travel, from a guy who was an executive at Dan Wesson firearms. He said every pistol that came back blown up was due to reloads.
Something else that seemed to be totally ignored in the shooting community is the effect of fatigue. Sure the firearm can withstand a couple of high pressure loads, (if you are lucky), but overstressing the materials reduces the service life of the part. Overstressed parts will fatigue fracture sooner than non overstressed parts. I have posted in a couple of threads about this and generally the response is that no one believes in fatigue fracture failure. Everyone believes in the big badda boom, an overpressure condition that is large enough to blow the gun into pieces, but no one seems to believe that a part with an overstress history can fail with a standard load.
It can happen to guns because guns are not immune to the laws of physics nor to the physical properties of materials.
If you choose to shoot re-loads in your firearms and blow up the gun, you own all the pieces. If you are shooting factory loads and your gun blows up you may well likely get some compensation from either the gun maker or ammo maker unless they prove you did something else that caused the problem. Such as having a barrel obstruction.
Shooting only light loads doesn't necessarily mean they are any safer than loads near max. It is your quality control that matters. It is easy to double charge very light loads and not notice until your gun blows. When working with mid-level or upper end loads you're much more likely to notice something isn't right if you screw up and try to double charge a case.
Shooting only light loads doesn't necessarily mean they are any safer than loads near max. It is your quality control that matters. It is easy to double charge very light loads and not notice until your gun blows. When working with mid-level or upper end loads you're much more likely to notice something isn't right if you screw up and try to double charge a case.
goochster said:
Technically, shooting any reloads in your firearm will invalidate the warranty. Now, let's presume you shoot your reloads, and develop an unrelated problem that requires you to send your firearm back to the manufacturer for some TLC. Some companies, if they know you used reloads, will not make the repair, or charge you for it, since you did, in fact, invalidate the warranty. Other companies won't worry too much about it unless you really toasted the gun. Be careful, and realize that the money you save by shooting reloaded ammo may end up going to replacing your weapon.
hatchettjack
Inactive
I own a dozen handguns.
I voided the warranty on the first shot with eight of them
You da man!
My Freedom Arms .454 Casull is the only gun I've ever heard of that had reloading data packaged with the gun in 1989, and now even carries reloading data on thier website.
I think the answer to the OP's question is that +P is a higher than standard pressure indicator for ammo which your gun must be rated in order to fire safely, and has nothing to do with reloading.
I think the answer to the OP's question is that +P is a higher than standard pressure indicator for ammo which your gun must be rated in order to fire safely, and has nothing to do with reloading.
ammo.crafter
New member
+P
Attorneys, lawsuits, liability. litigation...money awards.
Attorneys, lawsuits, liability. litigation...money awards.
"...Are reloads considered +P ammo?..." Not unless you load with +P data.
Manufacturers are CYAing themselves by voiding their warrantees if you shot reloaded ammo. They have no idea if a customer knows what he's doing and don't want to pay for the law suit. Even a law suit they win costs money and time.
"...One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+..." Only when loaded by some illiterate who refuses to follow the manual he very likely doesn't have. Same guys who say manuals are written by lawyers.
Manufacturers are CYAing themselves by voiding their warrantees if you shot reloaded ammo. They have no idea if a customer knows what he's doing and don't want to pay for the law suit. Even a law suit they win costs money and time.
"...One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+..." Only when loaded by some illiterate who refuses to follow the manual he very likely doesn't have. Same guys who say manuals are written by lawyers.
If you don't understand a technicality - especially when it's about reloading or firearms in general - you should read up at the sources until YOU understand the matter entirely. Do not rely on only one source, one manual or 'somebody' online.
Start here in order to understand what overpressure loads are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
Here is the link to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute:
http://www.saami.org/
That is THE source. Read it, research the calibers you are going to reload and print out each PDF spec sheet.
Always double better triple compare load data with other manuals or specs from bullet / powder manufacturers.
m2c
Last edited:
I think he is more worried about shooting shooting +P in a gun that is not rated for +P.
Lyman's data will clearing show which are +P loads. After reviewing the this thread, and wrongly assuming you were talking about 38 spl, I see that you are talking about 9mm. I highly doubt any reloading data manual will list any "+P" loads for 9mm, or anthing else except for .38spl. as I believe that is the only cartridge for which there is actually a SAAMI standard to define a +P load for it. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, follow your Lyman's, and you will be good, and you will be under the +P threshhold, unless it it specifically states it is a +P load.
Lyman's data will clearing show which are +P loads. After reviewing the this thread, and wrongly assuming you were talking about 38 spl, I see that you are talking about 9mm. I highly doubt any reloading data manual will list any "+P" loads for 9mm, or anthing else except for .38spl. as I believe that is the only cartridge for which there is actually a SAAMI standard to define a +P load for it. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyways, follow your Lyman's, and you will be good, and you will be under the +P threshhold, unless it it specifically states it is a +P load.
I have seen the warning about reloads voiding the warranty in every owner's manual I've read through. I have always wondered- If your gun is damaged or experiences a kB, how can a firearms manufacturer tell that the round in question was in fact a handloaded or reloaded round?
Obviously if there was a kB or severe damage, I imagine that is the first thing they would suspect. Do they examine the components of the round that are left? Pieces of the casing or primer? I'm just curious how they could prove 100% without a doubt that the round was not factory. Are they able to determine, for example, that the casing was Federal brass and contained a Winchester primer?
I have no issue with this warranty policy. The reason I'm asking is because performing failure analysis is part of my job and I find it interesting.
Obviously if there was a kB or severe damage, I imagine that is the first thing they would suspect. Do they examine the components of the round that are left? Pieces of the casing or primer? I'm just curious how they could prove 100% without a doubt that the round was not factory. Are they able to determine, for example, that the casing was Federal brass and contained a Winchester primer?
I have no issue with this warranty policy. The reason I'm asking is because performing failure analysis is part of my job and I find it interesting.