Are hydrashoks safe for my gun?

D

Doug.38PR

Moderator
I use a .38 Official Police which I'm told is not strong enough to handle .38+P which is fine. However in looking at this website http://federalcartridge.com/default.asp?pg=27&firearm=2 it seems like Hydraoshok has a little high muzzle velocity 950 for a regular .38 special, yet as you can see it says it's for a .38 special. It says nothing about .38+P or any warning about using in older models. I bought a box of these Federal Hydrashoks and the box simply said "High Energy, Low Recoil." "Ohh great!" I thought. But looking at the "high" energy, is this accurate? Will this cartridge be safe in a .38 special gun?

Also, what about .38 NTF as seen here http://www.pmcammo.com/handballistics.php
That says .38 special. Yet look at the power behind it. You mean I can use this in a .38 special only gun?

If not, both of these companies may sooner or later be looking at a lawsuit in the making when someone's gun is damaged or worse.

Thanks
Doug
 
All in the world that "+P" means is that the ammo is loaded to 10 or 12% higher chamber pressure than standard. That is not going to blow up or wear out your OP which is one of the stouter revolvers of its day. In 1940 Colt listed the Official Police as suitable for all .38 Special ammunition up to and including the .38-44 which was a heavier loading than any +P made today.

The URL you give shows a lot of Federal ammo and they are not marked as +P or standard. I THINK the Hydrashok 129 grain High Velocity is +P but the 110 grain "low recoil" is not. Probably somebody will come along who knows.

Unless you have a large ammo budget or a very shaky gun, you are not at all likely to hurt your gun with either. Just from a cost standpoint, I'd shoot enough Hydrashok to verify sight zero and familiarize myself with the recoil, then practice with cheaper ammo. (Actually I handload my practice ammo and I can make it do what I want it to.)

The PMC NTF (Non-Toxic Frangible) gets a high energy number because it is a very light bullet that blows out at high velocity. It is not +P and is not overpowered for any decent gun. It is meant for shooting at steel targets or into a steel bullet trap at close range, with a bullet that will smash to powder and not riccochet or spatter chips back at the shooter. It is not a good choice for either ordinary target shooting or self defense.

I assure you that no US ammo company is loading ammuntion that will hurt a name brand gun in good shape. If you beat up a lightweight or worn out gun with their stuff, they have a lot of disclaimers to muddy the water.
 
Are you certain?

I've been told by several gunsmiths that +P is NOT advisable to use in the OP. "It won't blow up the gun but it will do longrun damage internally." Or "The metal used in these guns (OP) was never mean't to handle the high power of modern ammuntion."

On the other hand, I've had several dealers tell me "Sure go ahead, I wouldn't hesitate for a second." or "Hey that's a good large frame, let me get you some 38+P for that."

"whoa whoa, I'd rather not do that," I say, "I've had several gunsmiths that have advised against that.

I had one gunsmith that told me, "You can use +P in the gun for defense, but to not use it on a regular basis at the gun range."

This brings up another point, will S&W model 10s handle (of the older kind from teh 70s and 80s) handle +P?

Doug
 
This is a non-issue. The older revolvers from the Depression and up until today are manufactured to 38-44 pressures. Colt even used to rebuild 38-40 Bisleys and New Services into 357 Magnums. S&W said 38-44s were safe in Military and Police revolvers chambered in 38 Special. The 38-44 N frames, New Services, Official Polices and even Military & Police revolvers were all safe with 38-44 cartridges up to armour piercing rounds. The PDs used to have their ammunition for police service loaded hot in their 38 Specials. IF the revolver is in good mechanical condition Hydra-Shoks are fine. +P is safe for most every 38 Special revolver built since WWII. I would be careful with pressure levels and use only 158 gr lead bullets in pretty much every revolver chambered in 38 Special made before WWII. It would not be advisable to use Hydra-Shoks in a Model of 1905 S&W or a M1909 Colt.
 
what do you think of this then?

Well, that sounds reassuring, but I'd like to hear what you and whoever else out there that may be reading has to say about this. I pullled this question and answer from http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/gunpages/colt_d_s.htm
Granted this is not about the Official Police but it is about a colt revolver made after 1940 up into the 80s. here it is:


Q: Is it safe to use +P ammunition in my classic Detective Special?

A: The revolver was never rated for this higher power ammunition by Colt, not even the late production models. Anecdotal information suggests that current gunsmiths will say, "Sure, go ahead. No problem." This, of course, is an easily denied statement since there is nothing in Colt's literature to confirm or deny this position.

AHEM! While it may be that using +P is not likely to cause a kaBOOM! event, there are other types of damage which may occur. And this type of failure could be caused by a combination of other problems such as cartridge case failure or a bullet lodged in the barrel occuring at the same time high power ammo is used.

Q: Wait, wait, wait. A kaBOOM! event?
A: A kaBOOM! (kB!) event is a catastrophic failure of a firearm when it is fired, an explosion sending damage and debris flying in all directions. There are no statistics available on such problems with any but Glock pistols and that is somewhat of an apples/oranges situation.

Here are the important issues:

There is always a possibility a firearm suffers from unrecognized damage by the current or previous owner which may have occurred from the use of high power, hot, handloads or use of ammunition loads for which it is not rated. Cracks and metal fatigue can be cumulative and be unrecognizable by the naked eye. Such conditions amount to an accident waiting to happen.
The blast of +P ammo is noticably greater than that of .38 Special loads. This means if it is fired indoors in a self-defense situation two problems will probably occur. The volume of the blast will temporarily (perhaps permanently) damage your hearing. If fired in a darkened room, the blast will temporarily impair your night adjusted vision.
THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT: The use of ammo for which this model firearm (or any firearm) has not been rated is not recommended. It amounts to abuse of the gun and will cancel or exempt any potential liability which its manufacturer might otherwise have had. This is true of factory or hand loads.
So here are your safe options regarding using +P ammo in a revolver with a 2" barrel: (1) Get a current production S&W LadySmith, (2) Get another late production model Colt or S&W or use one rated for .357 Magnum, (3) Obtain another inexpensive 2" barrel revolver such as the Taurus Model 85 or a Rossi with a 2" barrel.
 
My recommendation is, don't shoot anything in your gun that scares you. If you don't think your OP will stand +P, don't shoot it. If that is the case, I suggest you limit it to target shooting because standard velocity .38 Special is not a real effective defense round. Get something you consider suitable for the big loads to protect yourself.

All I can say is what I do. The guy who said "You can use +P in the gun for defense, but to not use it on a regular basis at the gun range." gave the procedure I follow... with a S&W M38 Airweight.

The only thing a Detective Special and an Official Police have in common is the horsie trademark. The OP is a much larger and sturdier gun.

Chic Gaylord, pioneering holster maker and cop buff of the 1950s said in 'Handgunner's Guide' 1960: "The Colt Official Police is probably the most famous police service arm in the world. It is rugged, dependable, and thoroughly tested by time. This gun can fire high speed armor piercing loads. It can safely handle handloads that would turn its competitors into flying shards of steel."
and in the chapter on ammunition and handloading:
"It would be sheer folly to make a souped-up .38 load that would be practical in a Colt Official Police or New Service, or in Smith & Wesson's .38-44 Outdoorsman and expect to use it in a "K" frame Smith & Wesson or an air-weight revolver." Old Chic was a Colt man and did not much care for Smiths, "J" and "K" frames especially. But he could get parts and service. I don't know where you would get an OP worked on these days.

I would not feed a S&W M10 a steady diet of +P. I know one IDPA SSR shooter who has had his M15 rebuilt more than once on regular use of .38 +P in competition and practice. But if I wanted it for self defense I would shoot enough to know how it feels and where it hits.

As Jeff Cooper says: "You will do as you think best."
 
I don't think those Hydra-Shoks are +p.
They aren't marked as such.
Their personal defense "high-energy, low recoil" are lighter for caliber rounds at higher than normal velocities. A 125-grain .38 at 950 fps is not +p, but a 158-grain (standard weight) at 950 fps would be.

It's just like their 165-grain "high-energy, low recoil" .45 ACP loads that run 1150 fps. Sounds real hot, but that's standard pressure for a 165-grain .454 load, just "high energy" because the lighter bullet at higher velocity has mroe kinetic energy than the heavier bullets, not that it runs at higher pressure.

Best thing to do would be to email or call Federal and ask them if it's a +p load to be sure.
 
By the way, the information on the detective special is just plain wrong. I have it in writing from Colt that they are rated for +p use, but not extensively. Up to 3000 rounds for steel frame (not an agent or cobra alloy frame) before inspection by factory is recommended. This is in the owner's manual.
The gun is not in production anymore, so obviously, abusing one wouldn't be prudent. Spare parts, or especially a frame, would be in short supply. But occasional use for self defense purposes seems reasonable.

PS. There are 110 grain hydroshocks that are +p, and others that are not. Be careful what you buy, if its a concern. I have some that aren't. They are a nice, soft shooting round. I haven't tried the +p.
 
I think they are the same

They look to be the same http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/c1612.htm

I think in 1926 the Army Special was simply renamed Official Police because the weapon was popular among policemen rather than army officers. I would use the same standards listed in throughout this posting for the Army Special as the Official Police.

Doug
 
Unless I am very much mistaken, hydra shocks are not plus p. The great thing about them is that they do what they do at normal pressures! They use the fluid dynamics created by the bullet design to ensure expansion, and not high velocity. They should work just fine for you.
 
Hello all,

Alright,

Federal E mailed me back and told me that the hydrashok ammo in question is NOT +P though they are high energy

I got my Official Police 1944 back fixed to factory specifications and fired 6 hydrashok rounds at the range yesterday. I was suprised to see that they had almost no recoil as opposed to the normal .38 special rounds in the FML or LRN or any other kind of regular .38 round I've fired.

An excellent defense round....I might even decide to get a box in .38+P since I know now my gun can handle it.

Doug
 
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