Are Hk products anything special anymore?

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Greg Bell

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Guys,
I realize that this covers more than just handguns, but you guys seem to know as much as anyone about this topic.

I was responding to an e-mail about the P7 on HKPRO when something struck me: HK isn't the company it once was. Hk used to be a true innovator, today their product line looks much the same as anyone else's. Think about how revolutionary the P9/P7 series were--then think about the USP. The USP is a pretty standard handgun that could have been designed just about anytime after WWII. With the exception of the much copied frame rails (really not all that used or useful) and the "recoil reduction system" the gun offers nothing special. I'm not bashing the USP, it's a fine gun (I have owned 2 without complaint)but is it anything diferent than what other companies offer? Much the same is true of the G36 and UMP. Plain-jane, boring desings that were availible from other companies, in esssence, before HK made them. Do you see anything like the Mp-5 or psg-1 coming out of HK today? I don't. Still, the companies new approach will probably make it more money, for now. One day the reputation for engineering excellence they built up over the last four decades will be wasted when people realize that the Hk that was no longer exists. Damn Brits!!

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 16, 1999).]
 
I think a conventional pistol was exactly the aim with the USP.

HK may have seen the reluctance of large agencies to adopt some of their radical new designs (caseless ammo rifle) as a limit to profit increases and adjusted accordingly.
 
The USP was created specifically for the American gun-buying public. Consider automobiles. The USA for USA cars I find boring. The foreign for USA cars used to be interesting, but now are all boring Camry lookalikes. The foreign vehicles I like are either not imported or the company tries to sell them here for a short time, but there is never enough interest to continue. I think the same goes for most non-consumable commodities including guns. I love Japanese engineering and quality and always wonder what kinds of weapons they would create today...
 
Well...if you look at the pre-USP era, HK was making very high quality hand-held tanks that commanded very high prices. Unfortunately, very high priced low volume items do not cut it in today's market.

Enter the USP. Still high quality but with slightly higher tolerances and at a very competative price. Using proven designs, plastic, and ergonomics to suit the target consumer (Americans) they can manufacture at high volumes but keep prices low.

I don't think there is any serious drive to develop new innovative firearm platforms anymore. The bottom line is all that is important today and the first thing that usually gets cut when a company slims down is R&D. Not the best situation but then again the USP came out of it.

- Ron V.

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HK nearly put themselves out of business developing new and innovative weapons such as the caseless G11. As a result, they were bought out by British Aerospace/Royal Ordnance. BAe/RO's then proceeded to lay off nearly half of HK's Oberndorf workforce. RO management doesn't really care about the art of firearms manufacture; they want 'Lego guns' that can be assembled inexpensively and sold at a good profit. At least HK hasn't yet suffered the fate of Enfield and Sterling; both were killed off by RO during the '80s.
 
Their simplicity in design is what makes them so special. That and their ruggedness. I wish they'd switch to a different coating, but that's the only problem I have with them.

HK seems to be going for the lowest common denominator these days, while still retaining high quality, something I heartily approve of.

USP: can be TRULY ambidexterous and comes in any trigger grouping, unlike the Glocks. Not too shabby IMHO, which is why it's still my primary carry gun, despite my acquiring a Glock 30 and a Kimber: It just works better.

As for the G-36, what more could you ask for in a weapons system? It's like an updated version of the Stoner System: can be used as a infantry rifle, carbine, SAW/LMG, and is already configured ready for drop in night vision/ enhanced optics. Pretty frigging sweet in my book, I know I'd snap one up in a heartbeat if they were available here (and no, I don't mean the "neutered" grey version.

With the UMP, it's again an example of becoming more elegant through simplicity, though I haven't had as much time to look at them. What's not to like about the MP5's successor, esp when it comes with the accessory rails built in and is less than 1/2 the price of an MP-5 (in a bigger caliber as well)?

Furthermore, they must be doing something right to have replaced the standard German army issue weapons so soon after introduction. I don't think they'd be switching to anything new if there wasn't a substantial reason.

Finally, let's not forget that they were the ones who got tapped for the OICW system, that funky high speed low drag super-rifle with the 20mm grenade launcher, camera, IR optics, laser, kitchen sink and bathtub as well.

So, don't be so quick to say they are nothing special: I'd say they are adapting and improvising their way into the 21st century quite well. I'm not seeing anything radically advanced coming out of a lot of the other shops, excluding the FN P90 and that cool Steyr candidate for the OICWs.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com

[This message has been edited by Spark (edited August 16, 1999).]
 
Fellow lovers of HK,

1. The USP is nice, but (and I know this is blasphemy)they are no better or different than offerings from S+W/SIG/Berretta (I would include Glock but their highly unsafe "saftey" system keeps them from being an acceptable self-defense weapon). In fact, several of these manufacturers offer weapons of higher practical usefulness--and with better workmanship.
2. The UMP: plastic Mac-10/ Berreta PM12s with frame rails. Wow. I'm sure its more reliable than the macs but I doubt seriously these guns will improve upon the MP-5. I am sure the MP-5 could be delivered with frame rails (and, according to the HKPRO site they soon will be). There is no reason why the MP-5 couldn't be manufactured more cheaply--HK just went for the gold and delivered the gun that silly LEOs thought they needed. The UMP will not see the success the MP-5 has--low cost or not.
3. The G-36? Whats on this gun that you couldn't get in the late sixties. Integrated scope? If this feature is worth abadoning the proven and superior technology of the G3/41 I am going to sell my hk-91 and buy myself an Steyr Aug--don't hold your breath.
4. However, i agree with the poster that said HK broke itself trying to produce superior weapons. Still, I think a great deal of the G11's failure was due to the end of the cold war--apparantly the German government was just about to replace its aging G3's with G11s when the whole game fell apart. They still needed to replace the 40 year old G3s so they bought the G36--why? Hell, they should have bought the G41 or just kept updating their G3's. I'll bet price had a lot more to do with it than anything good about the g36. It is hard to sell quality weapons when there isn't a boogeyman--but that still doesn't turn a frog into a prince. I am not questinoning the short-term wisdom of HKs current direction--but long term--they won't be anything special.

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 17, 1999).]
 
Well, despite the tricky juggling act of trying to stay competitive (involving innovation, but also taking into account demand, affordability, legal junk, etc.), you have to admit that HK has done outstandingly well. FWIW, the editors of Jane's Defence Weekly dubbed the USP as the best representative of the state of the art in handgun technology (thumbing my nose at the Glockheads ;) ).

IMHO, what's probably been stifling a lot of the really hard-core gee-whiz innovation (not just HK, either) has to do with the ever-increasing number of legal landmines thrown in the path of the civilian arms industry.

jth
 
The G36 is an easy one:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Modular weapons system
<LI>Takes AR magazines, making it NATO compliant
<LI>Lighter than the G3 and most likely easier to maintain
<LI>More versitile out of the box.
<LI>Truly ambidexterous (charging handle, fire selector)</UL>

Yeah, cost is undoubtably a factor as well, but the features of the new system stand on their own merits. We'll see how they actually hold up in the field.

As for the rest, again, part of their advanced elegance is their simplicity. You don't make things that simple without a lot of skill and work, and lessons learned.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com



[This message has been edited by Spark (edited August 17, 1999).]
 
No. Just kidding sort of. I rented a USP .45 last weekend and was disappointed. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the gun. It was accurate and I did not have any trouble with it but I was just expecting it to blow away all other guns from what I have heard about H&K. The gun is well made but for the price I would as soon just have a sig or (gasp) a glock.
 
I had the distinct pleasure of firing a box of ammunition thru the vaunted PSG-1 during a HK promotion. The scope was decent, Henkels or Swarovski, I forget which, but the most memorable part of the experience was the PSG-1 trigger, which rivalled the finest Daisy triggers I have ever squeezed.

The HK G3s were in no way equal to the M16s we fielded during my Army days. Give me a Colt, keep the HKs.

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Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle
 
HK has been doing leading edge stuff since the 60's... They do stuff other companies dream of.
Take a look at that Bad to the Bone 20MM Smart Gun!

Nothing common place about HK.


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"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
As many have pointed out, H&K created the USP (United States Pistol) to compete better in the American market. If it works for you, then buy it and use it. I had one but found it a little too top heavy to shoot effectively or comfortably.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the development of the USP pre-dates H&K's acquisition by British Aerospace/Royal Ordnance. H&K saw the handwriting on the wall ten years ago: Build an American pistol for American shooters. So they did.

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It only takes one bullet to change your life.
 
It was a fixed mount 6x42 Hensoldt w/illuminated reticle and was rather ineffective for the $$.

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"New Jersey... The First Communist State in The Union"

Jim
 
What about the HK USP Tactical and Expert models? The little O-ring thing is innovative. Recoil reduction, enhanced accuracy(O-ring), threaded barrel (Tactical) who else has them?
 
Guys,

I agree with JJCII. The O-ring system is innovative. Now that I think about it, it seems like HK tried to make a Glock/1911/Sig when they made the USP (those guns being fine designs and, more importantly, BIG sellers in the USA. Then, HK couldn't help but add in a few nice touches. The recoil system being a neat first, of course the frame-rails (almost universally ripped off by other makers now), the interchangable saftey systems, and now the o-ring stuff. I guess Hk couldn't stand it unless they added some unique touches. Of course, HK could please me even more if they came out with a squeeze cocking version.

As far as the G36, I guess it does fill a niche. I prefer my old 91'--but then again, I have never shot a G36.

As far as the PSG-1--I have to disagree with the negative comments about that model. I have never shot one--but I have shot an sr-9tc and have a friend who trained with one. The Sr-9tc offered incredible accuracy and a fantastic (PSG-1) trigger. I've shot a couple of other sniper set-ups and none of them came close. however, my buddy says the PSG-1 was heavy. On the other hand, he said the PSG-1 was supernaturally accurate and easy to shoot.
 
Thanks for the correction, the PSG-1 scope probably was a Hensoldt 6X (gimme a Leupold!). You are correct, the PSG-1 was heavy. Supernaturally accurate? I don't think so. My M1A would shoot far better, as would any of my AR15s.

IHO, there has never been anything special about HK except marketing hokum.
:)

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Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle
 
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