Are current design K,L,N S&W revolvers history?

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With CA Senate Bill 15 (SB15, see * below) becoming effective 1/1/2001, I spent this past Sunday (12/31) afternoon visiting two of the largest dealers in California to see what, if anything, was available at clearance prices. Both dealers have been selling S&W revolvers "post-sellout", but curiously the first dealer had no K, L, and N frame S&W revolvers whatsoever, and the second dealer (the largest) had their remaining inventory (66s, 686s, 629s) on sale with the other untested/uncertified guns. This dealer had the latest certified list which included no K,L,N frames, see * below. I thought this strange, as surely S&W will certify these revolvers to sell into the 6th largest economy in the world, and its largest dealer here would certainly know whether certification is forthcoming.

So, I questioned the most senior salesman and he claimed S&W is redesigning these models and with the testing/certification expenses for each model, slow revolver sales in general, and post-sellout boycott, certification couldn't be justified. Anyone hear of this "redesign" smokescreen, or is this another sign that the post-sellout boycott is greatly altering S&W operations?

* - For those unfamiliar and/or not affected (I know - move!), Cali's Senate Bill 15: "Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice". Here is the current certified list, which contains no K,L,N frames: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/certlist.htm

BTW, Browning, one Sig model, and Kahr pistols, either uncertifiable or nearing the end of their "marketable life", were available for 15-25% off.
 
While the basic K-frame lock work, which to my knowledge all other larger revolvers are based, is over 100 years old, I don't see them as being "history". S&W certainly could be re-designing its revolver line-up, but at this stage of the game, I would wager that any changes would incorporate various "smart gun" technology.


Gator
 
Swampgator,

I posted recently that Smith representatives have said that Smith will not get those k,l,n models tested and certified for CA because they will be having new models tested in about three months. Apparently Smith will not be selling or testing the old models in CA, and we will have to wait for the new models, or buy one of the current models we have come to love so much through a private party transaction.

Of course, buying a pre-sellout is preferable.

Now, on the other hand, if Smith were to publically back out, and re-join the ranks of the other makers, then I would like a 686 plus 4 inch, 617 10 shot, and one or more performance guns. A Performance Center gun on a L frame with 4 inch tube, chambered for 357 Sig and nice custom trigger and action job would be just about perfect!
 
DANGER WILL ROBBINS, SMART GUN!

Okay let's see if I get this correct, Smith is ultimately doing away with their revolvers as we currently know them ie lockwork, frame desingnations etc? So they can introduce newer, safer models?
Are they going to continue to sell older style revolvers outside of Cali or will the new models be it after a set date?

SMART GUN! SMART GUN! SMART GUN!
That sucks!

Gator

BTW shoot a 6" 686 before settling for 4", those two inches really are worth it!
 
Fla SwampGator

"Smith is ultimately doing away with their revolvers as we currently know them ..."

Yep, Gator, my thoughts exactly based on what I saw and heard 12/31/2000 in the dealers' showrooms, and confirmed by Raymond3's posted info. Evidently, the Cali certification forced S&W to reveal their product plans and timing earlier than they might have hoped. I would bet that it covers uniform nationwide products, not Cali specific, in that their agreement was with the federal government. Plus, the expense of supporting two distinct product lines would probably be prohibitive.

So, S&W's predicament is a product manager's nightmare: slowing revolver sales, post-sellout boycott, and smart guns nobody wants. Yikes! Looks like the end is near.
 
In talking with a smaller gun shop owner, it appears that the small dealers will be hurt most by the new law. He said that he has to sell one new gun a day since the profit on a new gun is so much smaller than on used guns. He can pick up a used handgun, for example, for $150 or $200 and sell it for $300 to $400 (depending on condition, make, model, etc.) Since the used market, for a dealer, will be almost non-existent since he can only sell used guns that are on the list, this is gonna hurt him badly. I can buy the same gun from a private party, but not from a dealer. Hmm...will this help make more private party guns available to other private parties, or will the dealers just keep buying them up and selling them out of state via the internet? There are so many older guns I'd like to buy...a pre-70's Detective Special, a S&W Model 19 or 66, a Colt New Service in .45 Colt...my wish list could on and on.
 
Sad, this may put a number of dealers out of business

Calif Hunter

I frequent a smaller shop like you describe. He's resigned now to concentrate almost exclusively on consignment sales. He will only order new guns with a pending sale, but not stock them. Perhaps we will see prices firm up in the resale market.

I wonder about the big dealers also. The two I've been in have alot of empty shelf space now, anxiously awaiting new additions to the certification list. You gotta believe their prices will go up.
 
Does anyone know if pre ban mags normal capicity are still legal?I was told by someone with a Para that his 12 round mags are now ilegal.Any truth?
 
Well, my hopes that S&W would wake up are fading. I do love their old DA revolvers. There's a gun show tomorrow, I think I'll be looking at used revolvers. Who knows, before long they may be worth more than I paid seeing as they are becoming an endangered species.
 
The high-capacity magazines made prior to the magazine capacity ban in 1994 are grandfathered and, as such, are PERFECTLY LEGAL.

Putting old high-cap. mags into a newly manufactured gun is also legal.

However, the conditions of the "agreement" that the gov't wants manufacturers to sign (the one that they extorted S&W into signing) would require that new guns be incapable of accepting legal high capacity magazines.

This is one of the provisions of this agreement that I find to be so objectionable.

What the gov't couldn't do through legislation passed through Congress it's trying to do through extortion and fiat.
 
As I said earlier the current design is over 100 years old, so lots of good used ones on the market for anyone NOT residing in Cali. Sorry for guys that are.

Here's a question, given the current attitude by other manufactureres (sp?) re S&W settlement, how many companies besides Colt do you see actively developing Smart Gun technology?

Gator
 
Sig has a model that looks like a P228 with a PC handing off the front end. Might be wrong on the model.

Why not just pass a law that you have to have 1300 SATs to buy a gun. That will be a smart gun law.

Oh, wait - then George Bush and Al Gore couldn't buy one.
 
beemerb, in addition to what Mike said, it is not legal in California to transfer (sell, give, etc.) a magazine with capacity greater than 10 rounds. It is perfectly legal to possess them.

My local (California) indoor range just had a firesale on their rental guns, Dec 28-31. They are not able to sell some of them, since they are not on the list.

If I were a handgun manufacturer, I might be looking at smart gun technology, but I would not ship it until it was ready. The Feb. 2001 "Guns" magazine has an article about the state of smartgun technology, and it ain't there yet. Just because a viable option does not exist today does not mean it may not exist tomorrow. However, I suspect the new S&W revolvers will use a key lock on the hammer, like Taurus.
 
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