Are .45ACP & 9MM High Velocity Bullets has the same Energy?

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stdalire

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My Questions.


 Are 9MM & .45 ACP with the same Velocity has the same Stopping Power?

 Corbon claimed that no matter whether it is energy from 9MM or a .45ACP would have the same stopping power, if the bullet is travelling faster the more energy created regardless of the size of bullet.

 Does it means that if a 9MM bullet and a .45ACP travelling at the same rate FPS would have both the same energy transferred?

 Would it be reliable to depend on test on gelatin medium rather than rely on actual incidents where 9MM & .45ACP were used and seen personally in the street or actual encounter of its killing effect?

 If we set aside target placement – which one really has the kill if both 9MM and a .45ACP of the same velocity was shot to the abdomen?

Thanks.
 
Greetings, sir. If a 115 gr 9mm bullet and a 230 gr .45 bullet are moving at the same speed, the .45 bullet will have twice the kinetic energy as the nine. However, it's not that simple in real life as the nine generally moves faster than the forty-five.
KE is defined as KE = 1/2 mass X velocity X velocity and mass is not the same thing as weight, which is a unit of force (due to gravity). Without getting into physics, you can see that since "velocity times itself" gets into the equation, KE really increases with modest velocity increases. If you subscribe to the "energy dump" or "transfer" theory of stopping power, then two bullets, regardless of caliber, that transfer equivalent energy levels have the same stopping power. However, I suspect that those penetrating to optimal levels while transferring said energy will do better in most circumstances than those that transfer the same level of energy at very shallow depths. Confusing, I know. In short, I use 124 gr plus p JHPs in 9mm and either 185 gr plus p or std pressure 230 gr JHPs in forty-five. Best.
 
The argument about which is "better" has been raging for over 30 years that I know of.

A .45 is a 9mm which has already expanded. :)

Having shot a helluva lot of both, I'd suggest you stay with whichevr you can HIT with, the best. Don't shoot just once and look; shoot til the bad guy quits. Then it won't matter, whether it's a .22 short or a .454 Casull...

:), Art
 
I have to agree with Art,caliber wars serve little purpose. shoot with what you hit best with, whatever gun or caliber. there is no all purpose answer for what gun or caliber is the best.you have to shoot them and find out what works for you. :)
 
If you want BOTH high velocity AND large frontal diameter, the .45 Super is the way to go. Although there are only 2 factories that I know of that are loading it, it looks like its found a nitch and is here to stay. If more people would express thier interest in it to the major manufacturers, ammo prices might just come down. Don't remember exact bullistics, but the full loadings are substantially more powerful than 9mm, 40 S&W, .357mag, and even .45+p!!!!!!

Any quality Commander or Govt length 1911 can be modified for use w/ it and is interchangable w/normal velocity .45 ACP ammo. There is a downloaded .45+p plus 50fps or so variety of .45 super ammo available for the commander since the fast slide action of the full strength stuff sometimes won't strip the next round off the top of a mag.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Expert members:

 I am very glad to get various opinions from different school of thoughts.

 To be frank to all: TFL forum adds one’s knowhow in owning a Pistol with the exchange of everyone experiences and expertise. I am very much thankful for that matter.

 Me as a user and reader about pistol cannot fully get an absolute answer to questions arises in my mind, because all users opinions are based from facts, mathematically calculated and common sense.

 It is true that all guns and calibers may do but still I have the belief that larger bullets who are full loads and fast still deliver more energy. For example. 9MM bullet that travels at 1,300 fps and a .45 bullet that travels also at 1,300 fps. Does it means it would have the same impact (energy) upon hitting the target? It’s a big question in my mind.

 If I take the opinions of others that no matter of the size it would have the same power, HOW come pistols has a classification of HIGH POWER and the lower calibers are not considered highpower.

 Another thing, if there is no great disparity of the energy why should the law enforcement agencies in some countries allowed particular Calibers for Civilians used only, and if the .45’s and .357’s and higher caliber be issued to Civilians they should have good training in Pistol or member of noted registered gun clubs to qualify in owning one. In that premise, I have the notion that the larger calibers are considered potent by the Arms expert like the police and military.

 I am amenable that even .22 in caliber is effective if placed on the forehead. But my main question is. Is the weight of energy delivered would be the same to that of larger bullets. I think not. It is really confusing isn’t it.

 I better go on a larger bullets believing that if it hit a target no matter where the place, at least I am confident that I delivered a surgical shot. Whilst if a lower caliber, if I shot someone and can still come after me than I am at disadvantage position.

 “Moving targets is very hard to place a bullets on the right placement like between the eye”.

 This is just my own analysis of comparing small bullet vs. bigger one.

Thank you.
 
Two things to mention: 1. The .45 Super by Triton Ammunition is designed for specially modified .45 ACP pistols that have undergone either/or barrel replacement to include thicker/stronger chambers and barrels, and/or recoil spring modifications to reduce the slide velocity to prevent damage to the frame and rails during recoil. The only gun that can fire .45 Super straight from the factory is the H&K USP45 and variants such as the Mk. 23 SOCOM and USP45 Tactical. Even these are recommended to change recoil spring assemblies after 4-5,000 rounds.

The box of Triton .45 Super in my possession says that it is manufactured specifically for USSOCOM with the Navy SEAL Trident, a nickle-plated case with flat point truncated cone bullet of copper jacketed lead construction. Cases are headstamped "TRITON" and "45 SUPER" to prevent them from being inadvertently loaded in unmodified .45 Auto's. The loading label indicates, 185gr bullet, velocity = 1340 fps and muzzle energy of 735 ft/lbs of force (to the best of my memory). This is in the small rifle category of muzzle energy. These rounds were designed to be fired in the H&K Mk. 23 SOCOM pistol.

Now, number 2; the total energy created by a projectile is the effect of it's mass x velocity, which seeks to answer your question above, stdelaire. The mass of the larger .45 caliber bullet (~200-230gr) versus 115-125gr for 9mm means that the .45 caliber bullet will be carrying more energy if moving at the same velocity, as follows:

9mm @ 1340fps = 115gr x 1340fps = 154 Power Factor (according to IPSC rules)

.45 @ 1340fps = 185gr x 1340fps = 248 Power Factor (again, IPSC designation).

With these simple calculations you can see the effect that bullet weight has on overall muzzle energy. The IPSC 'Power Factors' are designed to classify guns for competition, but also demonstrate the advantage of using a larger bullet in 'realistic' shooting scenarios. This is why the larger bullet weight is so important in a combat handgun. Combined with speed, weight is the other part of the equation that determines total force.

Hope this helps, sorry for the length,

[This message has been edited by LongDuck (edited September 21, 1999).]
 
I guess it should be obvious that if the velocity is the same, the heavier bullet will cause more trouble to the recipient.

Many countries government's are totally against civilians owning guns of military caliber/cartridge. Mexico immediately comes to mind, which is why there are many Colt Gov't models in .38 Super, but .45ACP is illegal. Same for 7mm & 8mm Mauser cartridge-guns, and .308...It's all political. Ties in with government distaste for an armed and therefore somewhat free citizenry.

With respect to the reuslts of any one shot in a gunfight, there is no such thing as "always". Guys have fired back after taking a 12-gauge slug in the center of the chest, for instance. Others have gone into total panic and ineffectiveness at the muzzle-flash of a miss.

The rules of a gunfight are: 1. Use what you have with you; it's the best you've got. 2. Shoot (hit) until he quits bothering you.

Most everything else is for chit-chat and argument during beers afterwards.

FWIW, Art
 
For those who would say, "the .45 is a 9mm that has already expanded." What a bunch of bunk.

A 9mm is basically a .36 caliber bullet, and a .45 is a .45. If you do the math, there is only .09 difference between the two.

Driving the .45 to 9mm velocities is possible, but the question must be asked, "is that practical for combat?" I've fired .45+p and .45 super. For me they were both pretty stiff stuff. Not untameable, mind you, but follow up shots are considerably slow compared to 9mm and .45.

Simple physics must tell us that a heavy bullet traveling at the same velocity as a lightweight bullet will have more energy. The reality is how to make that energy translate into a knock down or incopacitation. Thats why we all or most anyway carry HP's. That energy is used in expansion which hopefully translates into damage.

A HP at 1100fps or a FMJ at 1300fps??? which would you choose????

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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
stdalire: I feel you're unnecessarily complicating the issue of "stopping power." If you want to learn about the relationship between a bullet's terminal performance, wounding effects and wound effectiveness, I invite you to visit http://www.firearmstactical.com

Placement and penetration are the two most important qualities a bullet must have to produce an effective wound. All other factors, including energy transfer, are a distraction.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
Great, Shawn, I'll just load up my sig 226 with 124gr. ball and my sig 220 with 230gr. ball. Then, when I need to use my weapon, I can just say to the lady in the pretty blue dress pushing the baby carriage, who is standing right behind my advarsary, "Exscuse me lady I need to shoot this guy here, can you get out of the way. My bullets may just go through and through and hit your beautiful baby right square in the noggin.

When are you gonna learn penetration is important (I don't load with 95gr JHPs), but I don't want to be concerned with my downrange either (no ball ammo or the 147gr. crap that don't work)

Frankly, I'll probably always choose exactly what the FBI doesn't. Besides there mission is different anyway...




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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
Shawn:
I thought, that handling a gun and using the right ammo of its intended use should be given consideration being a responsible user.

In your explanation, it seems that PENETRATION will underscore all the importance of effective bullets. If I put emphasis on Penetration, it over-ruled all the previous explanation hereon.

Mr. S.A. Camp, has an exact explanation in saying that .45 has twice the kinetic energy as the 9MM if both travels in the same speed. So, to my own preference now, I will choose the bullets that are bigger and travel very fast.

Art Eatman, seconded that it looks obvious that if the velocity is the same, the heavier bullets deliver more energy or force. I am convinced in this explanation.

To summarize SA Camp and Art Eatman explanations, I can compare to simple illustration that I’ve learned from elementary grade. That, if we drop two (2) objects (small and big one) from a tower top. The two objects reached the ground at the same time and it travels the same speed. But the impact of the bigger object to the ground is heavier. My point here is, the bigger object still has a greater energy compared to the smaller one.

I like PeterGunn, responsible statement that even we will try to stop our adversary but at least we won’t include some innocent bystanders due to the great penetration effect of our bullets.

I like much to hear your great ideas.

Sonny
 
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