AR15 (?) shopping, newbie, and need help!

Clarence8

New member
I'm always shooting my handguns, but for a long while now, I've had the bug for an AR-15 or similar. I have about zero knowledge of good, real info on rifles and I want to start shopping and touching some of these things, and if I can help it, not make a fool of myself.

Where's a good place to start learning about carbines? Knowing what to look for? (sizes, twists, etc.)

What are the names to look for, and what are the brands to stay away from?

Or, what else should I be looking at?
 
Check out www.ar15.com

They have lots of info you can browse. I did and, even though I'm pleased with the Colt Match Target HBAR I have, I would highly recommend Bushmaster.

Just decide whether you want to rock-n-roll or do some serious target stuff.

Bushmaster Shorty or Shorty AK (muzzle brake) for passable accuracy and fun shooting - comes chrome lined with 1/9 twist.

or

Bushmaster 20" target model for good accuracy and casual rock-n-roll - comes chrome lined with 1/9 twist

or

Bushmaster DCM model for serious match shooting - comes unlined in 1/8 twist

Mikey

[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited August 19, 2000).]
 
As the proud owner of a pre-ban Bushmaster shorty, I'll second the Bushmaster nod. (personal opinion coming) I would not even consider owning anything else. I'm selling my upper, but only to buy another BUSHMASTER upper with a 14" barrel and a flat top receiver instead of the 11.5" and A1 rear sites.

See what Bushmaster has to offer at www.bushmaster.com.
You can also get lots of info in the FAQ section, as well as an article re-printed from the www.ar15.com site.

Good luck, and happy rock n rollin!

[This message has been edited by Onslaught (edited August 21, 2000).]
 
Only one thing to remember...BUSHMASTER is the BEST!!

If you are going to get into AR15 shooting, you may want to start stocking up on USGI mags. They are disappearing.

BEST MAGS (IMO)
1. USGI
2. ORLITE (mold#22 and up)
3. THERMOLD
 
You say AR or something "similar". Get the AR - it's one of the most accurate and versatile rifles around. You won't be sorry.
Then, decide what you want to use it for - plinking, varmint, competition etc. One of the advantages of ARs is the ease of switching out uppers - you can have a 16" barrel carbine and a scoped 24" barrel for ultra long range shooting.

There are a couple of very good books out there - "The Competitive AR15" by Glen Zediker, and "Black Magic" by John Feamster.
You can get a complete education on ARs from these books - they cover brands, barrels, magazines, triggers, cleaning, uses, scope mounts, handloads and cartridges.
I learned a lot from both before I made my purchase. WWW.AR15.COM is another good source of info. I got the Colt HBAR flat top because I wanted the option of mounting a scope. Very pleased with it.

[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
ClarenceB,

Sorry I got to the fire late but I will still offer my opinion because it is a question that I can get may teeth into.


First, if you are going to buy an AR, you need to make a couple of choices. Like any other gun purchase, you need to decide if you are going to be a collector/investor or if you are going to be a shootist. Next, I would ask, are you interested in having something cool that your friends will admire and which will draw oohs and ahs at the range or do you just want a tool.

To understand why you must decide this, you must have a 2 cent lesson in Manufacturers of ARs and some history. Very little that I am about to say is controversial but I may draw some flack from persons who will defend their brand for personal reasons.

Armalite not withstanding, Colt made the AR what it is today. The US Military used Colts exclusively throughout the 60s and 70s and into the 80s. Although Colt lost the bid in the eighties to supply standard M16s, their hottest little number the M4 is a colt at the present time. Colt remains the brand with the alligator on the pocket (if you know what I mean). I'm sure that damn alligator doesn't mean that the cotton **** it is attached to is "The best" but some folks may think so. Because of that, Colt is always admired by casual observers (even if they don't say so). Colt is also most likely to appreciate in the years to come, if kept in as new condition. This means it would appreciate most if you left it in the box unfired and less every time you ding it. You see why you have to decide if you are a collector? If you are, Buy an all original Colt in the newest condition you can find and then keep it that way. The glitch is that Colt has announced that they are no longer going to sell to the public. Now while this news has made their rifles more collectable it has also made them much higher.......Well if you are a collector I will leave the rest for you to figure out as you really will need a crystal ball. What if all guns are confiscated in 2 years? Etc. Etc. Beyond all of that and without regard to the alligator, A Colt AR is a damn fine rifle!.....and everybody knows it.

There are other brands which will (IMHO) shoot as well as a Colt (but no better) and they will last as long and you can get parts for them and they come with a warranty and, and, and. They are quite satisfactory if *You are just a shootist* and not a collector! They do not have an alligator (Only Colt has that). These would be Bushmaster, Armalite, PWA, FN & perhaps a couple more. PWA is no longer made but they are still available NEW.

The next consideration is preban or postban. Prebans (without regard to specific brands) are manufactured prior to Sept. 1994. Basically, here is the drill. The antigunners defined Collapsible (including folding) stocks, detachable magazines, pistol grip handles, bayonet lugs and flash hiders as "Evil" features generally associated with "Assault weapons" and legislated (mostly because gun owners are ignorant, lazy, fat heads and didn't vote)that no more rifles could be sold with more then two of these features. Usually, people choose the pistol grip and detachable magazine on these post bans. Then they put a "Muzzle break" on in place of the FH. It is patently illegal to purchase a post ban and modify it with more than two evil features.......but I hear some people have done it. Preban (irrespective of the alligator) ARs are way cool and command a premium. You can add any accessory that you want legally! Again, if you are not interested in Way cool, the postban configurations shoot a little better all else being equal and are considerably cheaper. Bayonet lugs and FHs are constrictions on the barrel which theoretically if not actually impede accuracy.

Finally, A word about barrel lengths. The 5.56mm cartridge is a real butcher on human flesh. This makes it a great weapon. At velocities less than 2700 feet per second all of this changes and do to charcacteristics beyond the scope of this post, that is no longer true. Inexpensive military ammunition manufactured to M193 specs, fired out of a 16 inch barrel will maintain a velocity of 2700 fps out to about 100 yards only. Yes, I have heard about longer shots but they are moving too slow to the beasts that they are at higher velocities. For every inch the barrel length is reduced, the initial velocity drops approximately 30 fps. In short, barrels of less than 16 inches are suspect of being sufficient to deliver a M193 at 2700 FPS to 100 yards.

There is lots more to know but this is a start I hope. I also hope it isn't more than you ever wanted to know :).
 
ClarenceB,

Sorry I got to the fire late but I will still offer my opinion because it is a question that I can get may teeth into.


First, if you are going to buy an AR, you need to make a couple of choices. Like any other gun purchase, you need to decide if you are going to be a collector/investor or if you are going to be a shootist. Next, I would ask, are you interested in having something cool that your friends will admire and which will draw oohs and ahs at the range or do you just want a tool.

To understand why you must decide this, you must have a 2 cent lesson in Manufacturers of ARs and some history. Very little that I am about to say is controversial but I may draw some flack from persons who will defend their brand for personal reasons.

Armalite not withstanding, Colt made the AR what it is today. The US Military used Colts exclusively throughout the 60s and 70s and into the 80s. Although Colt lost the bid in the eighties to supply standard M16s, their hottest little number the M4 is a colt at the present time. Colt remains the brand with the alligator on the pocket (if you know what I mean). I'm sure that damn alligator doesn't mean that the cotton **** it is attached to is "The best" but some folks may think so. Because of that, Colt is always admired by casual observers (even if they don't say so). Colt is also most likely to appreciate in the years to come, if kept in as new condition. This means it would appreciate most if you left it in the box unfired and less every time you ding it. You see why you have to decide if you are a collector? If you are, Buy an all original Colt in the newest condition you can find and then keep it that way. The glitch is that Colt has announced that they are no longer going to sell to the public. Now while this news has made their rifles more collectable it has also made them much higher.......Well if you are a collector I will leave the rest for you to figure out as you really will need a crystal ball. What if all guns are confiscated in 2 years? Etc. Etc. Beyond all of that and without regard to the alligator, A Colt AR is a damn fine rifle!.....and everybody knows it.

There are other brands which will (IMHO) shoot as well as a Colt (but no better) and they will last as long and you can get parts for them and they come with a warranty and, and, and. They are quite satisfactory if *You are just a shootist* and not a collector! They do not have an alligator (Only Colt has that). These would be Bushmaster, Armalite, PWA, FN & perhaps a couple more. PWA is no longer made but they are still available NEW.

The next consideration is preban or postban. Prebans (without regard to specific brands) are manufactured prior to Sept. 1994. Basically, here is the drill. The antigunners defined Collapsible (including folding) stocks, detachable magazines, pistol grip handles, bayonet lugs and flash hiders as "Evil" features generally associated with "Assault weapons" and legislated (mostly because gun owners are ignorant, lazy, fat heads and didn't vote)that no more rifles could be sold with more then two of these features. Usually, people choose the pistol grip and detachable magazine on these post bans. Then they put a "Muzzle break" on in place of the FH. It is patently illegal to purchase a post ban and modify it with more than two evil features.......but I hear some people have done it. Preban (irrespective of the alligator) ARs are way cool and command a premium. You can add any accessory that you want legally! Again, if you are not interested in Way cool, the postban configurations shoot a little better all else being equal and are considerably cheaper. Bayonet lugs and FHs are constrictions on the barrel which theoretically if not actually impede accuracy.

Finally, A word about barrel lengths. The 5.56mm cartridge is a real butcher on human flesh. This makes it a great weapon. At velocities less than 2700 feet per second all of this changes and do to charcacteristics beyond the scope of this post, that is no longer true. Inexpensive military ammunition manufactured to M193 specs, fired out of a 16 inch barrel will maintain a velocity of 2700 fps out to about 100 yards only. Yes, I have heard about longer shots but they are moving too slow to the beasts that they are at higher velocities. For every inch the barrel length is reduced, the initial velocity drops approximately 30 fps. In short, barrels of less than 16 inches are suspect of being sufficient to deliver a M193 at 2700 FPS to 100 yards.

There is lots more to know but this is a start I hope. I also hope it isn't more than you ever wanted to know :).
 
The bayonet lug by itself is harmless. However, putting on a bayonet will change the point of impact quite a bit. Been there, done that. In Switzerland, bayonet lugs are not banned.
 
Something else to keep in mind in AR shopping:

What are you going to use the AR for?

If it's High Power competitive rifle shooting, I'd start with Bushmaster's or Fulton Armory's purpose-built precision rifles. We're talking rifles intended for bulls eye work out to 600 yards at least.

If IPSC competition is in order, check out Wilson's for some ideas of what goes into such a rifle. Watch out for the sticker shock. You could probably get one built cheaper than them.

If it's casual plinking, about any AR will do, as long as it works.

If it's for a Really Bad Day (RBD) defense, like Red Dawn Day (RDD?) with enemy paratroopers raining from the sky (OK, so that's not too likely, but to give you some idea of magnitude of the problem), know that ARs set up for fighting are NOT the same as ARs set up for competition. Eugene Stoner originally designed the rifle for where most fighting takes place: less than 100 yards. Of those military engagements, most casualties and shooting that hits goes on at less than 25 yards. This applies well to civilian work, also. How often do civilian defenders and/or police do their work beyond 25 yards? For that matter, 25 feet?

A good example is the final battle in Saving Private Ryan. Except for the sniper, most small arms work was at fairly close range. Like, across the street type stuff.

At the really short range that RBDs most likely happen at, a 20" heavy barrel AR with bulls eye sights isn't much better than a 16" lightweight barrel with GI sights set on large aperture. Actually, the GI setup will probably be faster to use.

A lot of people are really "scope happy" when fitting out their ARs. Try some backyard-range (domestic suburban sized backyard!) stuff with the scope and realize it can slow you down. The electronic scopes can hinder you if they are not turned on and the covers are shut. The Trijicon Reflex sights don't use batteries, but all scopes to some extent will suffer from adverse conditions: water or dust on the lenses may FUBAR your sight picture.

Well, that's a lot of food for thought. Hope that helps.

Edmund
 
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