AR sights
- Thread starter ltc444
- Start date
thesheepdog
New member
A 3-6X scope should work.
Technosavant
New member
That's a bit of a spread. Defensive carbines tend to be shorter and easier to maneuver. Longer range varmint rifles (like those for prairie dogs) tend to be longer with slower twist for lighter bullets.
So I guess the question is which role will the rifle be leaning toward?
If you want a do it all, a Trijicon ACOG might be the thing (or maybe one of their Accupoint scopes). If you want to excel at both, I'd get a close quarters type optic and a variable power telescopic scope, but mount them both on QUALITY quick detach mounts (aka... LaRue Tactical... those return to zero when removed and replaced). Then you can throw on whatever you might want to have at a given time.
So I guess the question is which role will the rifle be leaning toward?
If you want a do it all, a Trijicon ACOG might be the thing (or maybe one of their Accupoint scopes). If you want to excel at both, I'd get a close quarters type optic and a variable power telescopic scope, but mount them both on QUALITY quick detach mounts (aka... LaRue Tactical... those return to zero when removed and replaced). Then you can throw on whatever you might want to have at a given time.
There isn't a do all optic for self defense and prairie dog hunting IMHO. There is a good compromise for barrel twist and a reasonable solution for optics. A barrel with a 1 in 9 twist will give you a decent bullet weight range enabling you to choose a lighter ballistic tip for varmint while still letting you get into a reasonable middle-weight for self defense. For personal defense I use an RRA LAR15 with a fixed A2 front sight and a GG&G folding rear two aperture sight. The optic is an EOTech XPS2-0 HWS. I have co-witnessed the iron sights with my EOTech. While this is my self defense AR I have another that could do double duty for predator hunting/personal defense. I have mounted a Leupold VXII 2x7x33 on a 1 in 9 twist Stag Model 8. The 2x gives me a wide enough field of view to permit using it for close in targets while the 7x allows me to take coyote out to 200-250 yards. I can take ground squirrel and other small furry critters with the rifle out to 150, maybe even 200 yards with my old eyes. Between the two using the 2x7 scope gives me more flexibility. If I had only one weapon and could only afford one optic that would be the way I would go. If you could afford a second complete upper with a second optic you could use the same rifle for varmint hunting, switch uppers and have it as a ready to go home defense rifle.
Last edited:
One thing great about the flat tops, you have a lot of versatility. With the right mounts or rings, with the flip of a lever it can have a scope on it, or a good red dot, whatever you want.
I have an Armalite M15A4(T) that usually has a Leupold 1.5x5 scope on an ARMS lever mount on it. But I also have a pre zeroed Aimpont M2 on an ARMS lever mount too, that will pop right on if I feel the need.
I have an Armalite M15A4(T) that usually has a Leupold 1.5x5 scope on an ARMS lever mount on it. But I also have a pre zeroed Aimpont M2 on an ARMS lever mount too, that will pop right on if I feel the need.
The Great Mahoo
New member
As NWCP suggested, just get a second Upper. Kit out your gun as a short carbine for defense. Buy a second upper down the road with flat-top and mount a scope on it to use for varments. Sights will stay where they need to be as you swap back and forth; all you have to do is pop two pins and swap to whatever style you want at the time.
jokester_143
New member
About 2 years ago, I came across a sight the was a reflex sight (CCB) and if you rotate the rear part of it, it would "zoom" in a bit... I've been trying to remember the name of it, but to no avail.
As for what was mentioned mentioned inregards to defense carbines, you could get a "M-16" length one and use it for double purpose. The military has, and still uses full length for room clearing, as not everyone is issued an M-4.
As for what was mentioned mentioned inregards to defense carbines, you could get a "M-16" length one and use it for double purpose. The military has, and still uses full length for room clearing, as not everyone is issued an M-4.
Same can be said for a carry handle model too. Set up different scopes/red dots, halos or whatever on separate carry handle mounts and with the twist of a knob you can change them out. With good mounts (Dednutz-Game Reaper is a great mount for the money), they retain zero pretty well.
Here's the decision tree for a build. Determine the needed accuracy with the caliber and game chosen, barrel, bolt, upper, optic, furniture, trigger.
Carbine ahead of prairie dog doesn't work. Carbine is 2MOA, 16" chromed, prairie dog is 1/2 MOA stainless 20". Don't chose the barrel then dictate it has to work completely out of its design envelope. Choose the goal, and match the barrel thats optimum.
A 16" carbine won't shoot minute of prairie dog past 100 yards. Not good. You need a 20" stainless precision barrel, quality bolt, A3 flattop upper, 3X9 quality scope, fixed stock furniture with a simple free float tube to mount a bipod, and quality target trigger.
No way that varmint gun works as a CQB carbine, either. It's a foot too long to exit a HMMV, is hampered inside buildings, and the scope is even worse, go to a non magnified red dot. Most targets will be under one hundred yards outdoors, under 50 feet indoors.
What the gun will do 85% of the time is what to build it for, you get your money's worth, actually shoot it often, and don't wind up spending more money to make it actually do what you need because it wasn't right.
Barrel, bolt, upper, optic, furniture, trigger. Applied to my requirement of hunting whitetails, I went 16" 6.8SPC, ITS bolt, A3 upper, red dot optic with backup iron sights, A1 stock, rifle handguards, milspec trigger with an adjustable setscrew to limit travel. Not a good prairie dog gun much. Great for hunting medium sized game.
Even Lego houses need good foundations, same for Lego guns.
Carbine ahead of prairie dog doesn't work. Carbine is 2MOA, 16" chromed, prairie dog is 1/2 MOA stainless 20". Don't chose the barrel then dictate it has to work completely out of its design envelope. Choose the goal, and match the barrel thats optimum.
A 16" carbine won't shoot minute of prairie dog past 100 yards. Not good. You need a 20" stainless precision barrel, quality bolt, A3 flattop upper, 3X9 quality scope, fixed stock furniture with a simple free float tube to mount a bipod, and quality target trigger.
No way that varmint gun works as a CQB carbine, either. It's a foot too long to exit a HMMV, is hampered inside buildings, and the scope is even worse, go to a non magnified red dot. Most targets will be under one hundred yards outdoors, under 50 feet indoors.
What the gun will do 85% of the time is what to build it for, you get your money's worth, actually shoot it often, and don't wind up spending more money to make it actually do what you need because it wasn't right.
Barrel, bolt, upper, optic, furniture, trigger. Applied to my requirement of hunting whitetails, I went 16" 6.8SPC, ITS bolt, A3 upper, red dot optic with backup iron sights, A1 stock, rifle handguards, milspec trigger with an adjustable setscrew to limit travel. Not a good prairie dog gun much. Great for hunting medium sized game.
Even Lego houses need good foundations, same for Lego guns.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
RdKill said:
Carry handles aren't anywhere near as versatile as flattops. Firs of all, any optic in a carry handle is going to be mounted at least 3" over the bore. If you get a cheekpiece where you can use the optic comfortably, then you can't use the iron sights without removing the cheekpiece. And while some carry handle mounts retain zero "pretty well", there are many choices of flattop mounts that will return to zero so reliably you can't tell the difference between a normal five-shot group and a five-shot group where the mount was removed and reattached after every shot.
Not to mention that with a flattop, you have a huge range of iron sights as well. I can have an HK drum rear aperture sight for my AR. I can have M14 NM rear sights that attach to my AR. I can even go open sights if I want to. Plus I can change it all back to the way it was with a twist of an allen wrench. Heck, I can even have a carry handle on a flattop.
Finally, with a flattop I can use multiple optics. I can use a magnifier with a red dot, or a PVS-14 with a red dot. I can use a scope with an offset red dot. That isn't something you can do with a carry handle.
Short of nostalgia or personal desire, there is pretty much zero practical reason to have a fixed carry handle on an AR.
tirod said:
I have to disagree with tirod here. I've got a 16" carbine that is quite capable of ruining a prairie dog's day out to 300m and still do heavy duty carbine work. However, he is right in the overall point I think he was trying to make, which is that a dedicated upper will always outperform a multi-purpose upper. A dedicated 16" home-defense upper is going to be better than my 16" carbine in that role. A dedicated 20" prairie dog upper is going to be better than my 16" carbine in that role. The flip side of that is I know how to use that one rifle in a variety of situations and I'm very comfortable and confident with that rifle.
Having said that, you need to think about what compromises you want to make and where if you are going to try to achieve both purposes with a single rifle. Is accuracy more important than reliability? Is having a true 1x optic for home defense more important than being able to see a prairie dog well at a distance? What are the likely ranges I need to engage each target type?
And one other thing, while my rifle isn't as good as a dedicated upper, it cost a lot of money. I could have easily built two dedicated uppers for what I've got in the one upper that doesn't do either role as well.
chris in va
New member
Agree with ^, trying to picture when a SD scenario would have you shooting past 10 yards and the DA billing it a justifiable homicide.
That being said, I plan to just use a ho-hum red dot when my AR funds arrive for making ground targets dance, or informal matches.
That being said, I plan to just use a ho-hum red dot when my AR funds arrive for making ground targets dance, or informal matches.
Anyone who can pot a prairie dog at 300 probably isn't using a 2MOA barrel. 6" groups plus wind correction would probably leave dogs curious at all the dust.
Since the price of that upper could have built two, I don't doubt it's far from being the average chrome lined tube hawked for as low as 89.99. But it is a good example of the point - name the game, then build to suit. If a carbine needs to reach out to a prairie dog at 300m, it's not a run of the mill barrel doing it.
Look at the what the military mounts on the M4 as a case study. Combat carbine, 16" chromed carbine gas barrel, flattop upper, red dot optics, adjustable stock for armored vest use. Next is the quad rail, included as a institutional compromise to mount all that heavy old school large battery gear. Still, nobody needs 48" of rail, most don't load it up. The potential improvement in accuracy for the 450m use is about nil - it's a 2MOA chrome lined barrel. Making the group size about 1/2MOA better is just taking a 9 inch circle down to 8 inches, on an 18" square center of mass hit. An optic will deliver a more sure hit, that's why it's ahead in the order.
Let testosterone make all the choices means what we see in a lot of build posts already. 2MOA barrel, flattop, 3x9 scope, adjustable stock, expensive quad rail almost as expensive as the barrel, VFG, $250 target sniper trigger.
Still a 2MOA shooter, and an expensive one to boot. Built to impress visually, not with actual results. Run them through a 1000 round weekend, the bling comes off, bolts and extractors get replaced for quality, and carbine instructors loan them a plain jane M4 that's had 50,000 rounds through it with never a bore brush down it. Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.
Since the price of that upper could have built two, I don't doubt it's far from being the average chrome lined tube hawked for as low as 89.99. But it is a good example of the point - name the game, then build to suit. If a carbine needs to reach out to a prairie dog at 300m, it's not a run of the mill barrel doing it.
Look at the what the military mounts on the M4 as a case study. Combat carbine, 16" chromed carbine gas barrel, flattop upper, red dot optics, adjustable stock for armored vest use. Next is the quad rail, included as a institutional compromise to mount all that heavy old school large battery gear. Still, nobody needs 48" of rail, most don't load it up. The potential improvement in accuracy for the 450m use is about nil - it's a 2MOA chrome lined barrel. Making the group size about 1/2MOA better is just taking a 9 inch circle down to 8 inches, on an 18" square center of mass hit. An optic will deliver a more sure hit, that's why it's ahead in the order.
Let testosterone make all the choices means what we see in a lot of build posts already. 2MOA barrel, flattop, 3x9 scope, adjustable stock, expensive quad rail almost as expensive as the barrel, VFG, $250 target sniper trigger.
Still a 2MOA shooter, and an expensive one to boot. Built to impress visually, not with actual results. Run them through a 1000 round weekend, the bling comes off, bolts and extractors get replaced for quality, and carbine instructors loan them a plain jane M4 that's had 50,000 rounds through it with never a bore brush down it. Takes a licking, keeps on ticking.
Last edited:
Probably need to clarify
Thanks for the input. But I should clarify my paramaters.
1. The rifle will be used for carry around my property while I'm doing chores. When I'm serious about Prarie Dogs and Coyotes I use a 722 Remington with a Lizt semi bull barrell in 257 Roberts topped by a weaver k12 scope. With this set up I shout sub minute of angle groups with an 87 grain hornaday bullet.
2. The sights on the AR must be robust and take a lot of, for the lack of a better term, abuse on a UTV or tractor.
3. I would like input on specific sight systems which readers have used under similiar situations.
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for the input. But I should clarify my paramaters.
1. The rifle will be used for carry around my property while I'm doing chores. When I'm serious about Prarie Dogs and Coyotes I use a 722 Remington with a Lizt semi bull barrell in 257 Roberts topped by a weaver k12 scope. With this set up I shout sub minute of angle groups with an 87 grain hornaday bullet.
2. The sights on the AR must be robust and take a lot of, for the lack of a better term, abuse on a UTV or tractor.
3. I would like input on specific sight systems which readers have used under similiar situations.
Thanks for your comments.
I have used several sights on AR's for different purposes. Ironically, I found what I think would suit you while trying out a scope on my 20ga UltraSlugger. It was meant for fast shooting and reasonable precision too. I honestly figured it would break or come up short being as cheap as it is. Once I looked through it I knew I would love it if it lasted. I am VERY hard on my scopes and expect allot from them too. Now all my firearms meant primarily for sub-300yd shooting wear this piece as do my kids' guns too.
If you care to try a scope that runs about $80, try a KonusPro 1.5-5x32 scope. For fast shooting like defense, close 'yotes, and a deer standing up a few yards in front, I simply aim with the diamond and fire. The eye automatically centers it for me. If it is too close for that I would probably blind shoot anyways. Target acquisition is faster than any service sight I have used (v sight, peeps, and the USMC RCO/ACOG) too.
On the other hand if I have the time to aim I can zoom it up to 5x and use the very fine crosshairs it has. I have made four kills with my 16" AR beyond 300yds and one at 426yds on groundhogs.
Well after drops and bangs it is still on my shotgun too and the zero is still good. I can't say enough about it. If you can give it a try. It will surprise you.
Here is mine all ready to go
Scope close up
My best group with it. It averages about .5@100 most of the time with this load (28gr H335 behind 40gr Blitzkings).
If you care to try a scope that runs about $80, try a KonusPro 1.5-5x32 scope. For fast shooting like defense, close 'yotes, and a deer standing up a few yards in front, I simply aim with the diamond and fire. The eye automatically centers it for me. If it is too close for that I would probably blind shoot anyways. Target acquisition is faster than any service sight I have used (v sight, peeps, and the USMC RCO/ACOG) too.
On the other hand if I have the time to aim I can zoom it up to 5x and use the very fine crosshairs it has. I have made four kills with my 16" AR beyond 300yds and one at 426yds on groundhogs.
Well after drops and bangs it is still on my shotgun too and the zero is still good. I can't say enough about it. If you can give it a try. It will surprise you.
Here is mine all ready to go
Scope close up
My best group with it. It averages about .5@100 most of the time with this load (28gr H335 behind 40gr Blitzkings).
Last edited:
The AR I carry around the farm on ATV's and on the tractor is a 16" HBAR profile flattop with a 1.5-5x32 variable, adjustable carbine stock, and a two point sling. It shoots under 1 moa and will roll a coyote @ 250 yards if held right. Makes a very handy to carry outfit while still providing acceptable range and accuracy. I've used a one point sling but find the rifle flops around more than I like and hangs too low when sitting on the ATV.
That'll Do
New member
Lots of good info so far.
The basic idea is build the weapon to suit the task at hand.
My general purpose AR (self/home defense, training, SHTF etc.) is a Colt 6920 (16" barrel flat-top, basically an M4 clone, minus the 14.5" bbl and select fire option) with an EOTech 512 HWS. I also have a backup rear iron sight (Troy Industries). I also have a Magpul ACS buttstock, as it allows me a much better cheek weld as opposed to the standard M4 stock. I can't wait to take a good carbine course, as I truly want to become proficient with this gun.
A good forum to check out for those who are interested in serious AR use (as in on the battlefield/law enforcement/private contractor) is www.m4carbine.net. The people there really know their stuff. I learned a lot about what to look for in a quality AR, what gear is really great to have, and what is just "tacti-cool" crap, and just general "good to know" stuff.
The basic idea is build the weapon to suit the task at hand.
My general purpose AR (self/home defense, training, SHTF etc.) is a Colt 6920 (16" barrel flat-top, basically an M4 clone, minus the 14.5" bbl and select fire option) with an EOTech 512 HWS. I also have a backup rear iron sight (Troy Industries). I also have a Magpul ACS buttstock, as it allows me a much better cheek weld as opposed to the standard M4 stock. I can't wait to take a good carbine course, as I truly want to become proficient with this gun.
A good forum to check out for those who are interested in serious AR use (as in on the battlefield/law enforcement/private contractor) is www.m4carbine.net. The people there really know their stuff. I learned a lot about what to look for in a quality AR, what gear is really great to have, and what is just "tacti-cool" crap, and just general "good to know" stuff.
I've dedicated my Stag Model 8 as a predator rifle. It wears a Leupold VXII 2x7x33. At 2x it has a wide enough field of view for personal defense yet with 7x allows me to shoot out a bit beyond 200 yards. It works for me and wasn't all that expensive. I removed the iron sights to maintain as low a profile as possible.
Last edited: