AR-15 Suitable For Home Defense

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tacstar

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In light of recent events in Broken Arrow Oklahoma I wonder if people will continue to frown down upon the AR-15 for home defense. For years the argument has gone on between the proponents of the AR-15 for home defense use & those against it. From what I've read those not in favor of the AR-15 state that .223 round has great penetration & if you missed the intended target you run the risk of injuring family members in adjacent rooms or people in neighboring homes.

When I took Administration of Justice several years ago the instructor was a 25 year LAPD veteran detective. He said from his experience he didn't recommend a handgun for home defense. He said he had seen several home owners killed with their own guns that had been wrestled away from them during a confrontation. He recommended a 12 gauge shotgun. Unfortunately I didn't ask him how he felt about the AR-15. I wonder how the homeowner in Oklahoma would have faired against three intruders with a handgun. Do you think the outcome would have been the same if he wasn't very proficient with a handgun.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/three-people-shot-killed-after-broken-arrow-home-invasion
 
If you're not proficient with a weapon and prepared to end another life, then you shouldn't have it.

As to an AR-15 for home defense, it depends.

If you live in an apartment, it's likely a through-the-wall over penetration hazard. If you live in the boonies on a section+ ranch, you might need an AR-50.

I'm a proponent of birdshot in tight quarters like an apartment or small / closely spaced homes. Close up to a bad guy a 12 ga w/ birdshot makes a big hole on the front side according to ballistic gel tests and actual events.

As to a handgun, the ammo has a lot to do with over penetration.

If you use frangible ammo, most any weapon is safer from over penetration.

But the bottom line is you need to be proficient with the weapon first vs. picking "something".
 
FWIW pretty sure there's been plenty testing that shows high speed 5.56 round penetrate interior walls less than handgun rounds. I'm a big believer in having options, my 12g is loaded with buck and slugs simply because while birdshot can kill a man it can also just create very bad surface wounds as well. My AR has marked magazines of m193, m855, and mk262. I plan on adding federal fusion .223 to my stockpile. And my 9mm and .380 both have hornady HP ammo.
 
The myth that an AR-15 will always over-penetrate just refuses to die, huh? With proper hollow-point defensive ammo, a 5.56/.223 round will penetrate far less through drywall than any decent defensive handgun or shotgun load.

If you're worried about over-penetration, an AR-15 is one of the best home-defense firearms you can find.
 
Gotta' ask,
Why did the 25 year veteran cop think it was easier to keep hold of a shotgun than a handgun?
Knowing how to use what you have is more important than the choice of weapon.
 
Theohazard said:
The myth that an AR-15 will always over-penetrate just refuses to die, huh? With proper hollow-point defensive ammo, a 5.56/.223 round will penetrate far less through drywall than any decent defensive handgun or shotgun load.

If you're worried about over-penetration, an AR-15 is one of the best home-defense firearms you can find.
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This is why I switched from a shotgun to an AR for home defense after doing the research.

Another reason for choosing the AR for me is, if the bad guy has high capacity rifle I sure want one too.
 
Several videos on overpenetration of walls

Here's a video that shows 5.56 penetrating 10 sheets of drywall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE


Here's similar regarding birdshot going thru 6 sheets of drywall, and bouncing off the 7th.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/


Here's one of 8 walls with 5.56, 9mm and a 12 ga. with 00 buckshot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE

While we can debate what the definition of 'overpenetration' is, it's clear the 5.56 round penetrates well past the birdshot and a bit past the 12 ga. 00 buckshot.
 
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TXAZ said:
it's clear the 5.56 round penetrates well past the birdshot and a bit past the 12 ga. 00 buckshot.
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With proper defensive ammo, the 5.56 will penetrate far less through drywall than any buckshot load. I'm not in a place where I can watch YouTube, but I'll bet they're not using hollow-points in that video.

Here's an article about the FBI's research into 5.56/.223 penetration:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

And here's the results of a drywall penetration test:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
 
It seems obvious the solution to this controversy is:
Use the best ammo for the situation, train for and use good tactics, and don't miss.
 
g.willikers said:
Gotta' ask,
Why did the 25 year veteran cop think it was easier to keep hold of a shotgun than a handgun?
Knowing how to use what you have is more important than the choice of weapon.
Click to expand...
Not even knowing how to use it, but being willing to use it. The only thought I have about a bad guy wrestling away a homeowner's gun during a confrontation is that the homeowner waited too long to pull the trigger. If the invader is close enough to grab the gun, he's too close, and should have been shot about three steps earlier in the sequence of events.
 
g.willikers "...don't miss".


And have made the decision before that you are able to pull the trigger. Otherwise, a weapon becomes a liability
 
A number of valid points have been brought up, as well as a number of valid sounding points. You can think of this as playing Devil's Advocate, or as a cross examination of certain statements. Its not personal.

I see the popcorn has arrived, so let the show begin! :D

From what I've read those not in favor of the AR-15 state that .223 round has great penetration & if you missed the intended target you run the risk of injuring family members in adjacent rooms or people in neighboring homes.
Click to expand...

Pretty much true for anything that comes out of a gun barrel.

If you're worried about over-penetration, an AR-15 is one of the best home-defense firearms you can find.
Click to expand...

These statements seem to be at odds with each other, but they aren't, completely. What makes the difference between the same gun being " overpenetrative" or not, in a given wall construction is the specific ammo used.

There is a world of difference between FMJ GI surplus ammo (maybe with a steel penetrator core) and a Hornady V-Max varmint bullet the same size, weight and speed.

With proper hollow-point defensive ammo, a 5.56/.223 round will penetrate far less through drywall than any decent defensive handgun or shotgun load.
Click to expand...

Quite true. The other side of the coin is that without the proper hollow point defensive ammo, the AR has greater penetration than most decent defensive handgun or shotgun loads.

..was a 25 year LAPD veteran detective. He said from his experience he didn't recommend a handgun for home defense. He said he had seen several home owners killed with their own guns that had been wrestled away from them during a confrontation.
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This is an example of something that sounds valid, but really, is it?? Not doubting he's seen what he's seen, just doubting the conclusion he made. What, if anything, makes you think that things would have ended differently for those poor people if they had a long gun taken away from them, rather than a handgun???

I wonder how the homeowner in Oklahoma would have faired against three intruders with a handgun.
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The linked news report gave no details of the shooting, (beyond 3 killed with an AR) without which it is impossible to say with any certainty if the fact that it was an AR made any difference. We don't know ANYTHING about how many shots fired, where the hits were, what the range was (other than inside the house), and those details matter quite a bit if you are trying to determine is there was an advantage in the specific arm used, or not.

Do you think the outcome would have been the same if he wasn't very proficient with a handgun.
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No, with a handgun, it would have been different. "very proficient"? not sure how you define that, but it doesn't matter, really. With a handgun the details would be different but the outcome could still be the same.

Clearly the AR is a suitable choice for home defense, since it worked, you really can't say it isn't.

Is it the best choice?? THAT is ENTIRELY situational, and every situation is different. If you live in a crackerbox, packed amongst hundreds of other crackerboxes, you need to consider things differently than if you live in a stone walled castle, miles from anyone else.
 
Oh well - I have to join in.

This is a typical hardware vs. software discussion and the interaction of both.

I think it is clear that one can defend one's home with an AR, shotgun or handgun IF you know what you are doing. The hardware is not a magic solution.

If you can, you should train and try out each type of weapon in training and a simulated home environment.

Yes, it is clear that the 223 over penetration issue is over done. It is not the case and folks who don't research things spout that. It is clear that various handgun rounds and shotgun ammo zip right through houses.

I really don't take too much from the detective's musings. Manipulating long arms through a house is not the easiest thing and retention takes training with any firearm if the opponent closes on you. Wrestling for a long arm isn't the world's easiest thing - so I don't know if he had a real data base or just speculating off an incident or two.

So - if you want to be real - train with each and make an informed decision. Each gun, if a quality example, has sufficient ability to stop attackers without resorting to the meth, zombie, 300 lb biker meme.

Consider what you have to manipulate with a long arm - the phone, the light, herding the kids, etc. Can you and have you practiced this?

The standard issue is the long arm is brought into play when you hunker down in a defensive position. Try holding a 12 gauge on a simulated bad guy for a long time and trying to play with the phone.

Or where do you put your popcorn when holding your AR? I'm getting mine ready for the rest of the argument.

It's really software and training with a good quality gun that is more important in home defense.
 
I prefer a pistol. But a 9mm is probably going through more construction materials than a .223.
Doesn't matter, nothing stops a bullet faster than something made from meat, so don't miss.

Shooting any mammal at close range with pretty much any .223/5.56 is going to be pretty devastating.

But a pistol can be on you 24/7 not many rifles can.
 
I chose the Kriss Vector in a prior thread. I find it very reliable, which is most important. Easy to maneuver in close quarters. Takes a compact red dot sight or laser. I choose not to add a light, but that could be handy. Not supposed to shoulder without tax stamp, but in crisis mode, that cheek weld could be switched to the stability of the shoulder. very slight recoil is conducive to accurate follow up shots. All offered calibers, 9, 45, 10, .40 S&W or .357 Sig in a proper defense designed load seem ideal. Clearly an AR is suitable, but I like options.
 
How long do you want to listen to your ears ringing?
In a building, my house, I'll stick with regular strength 9mm, 38spl or #4 shot from my 12 gauge. I'm certain to have quite a headache and hearing loss.

5.56x45 even at an outdoor range is unpleasant from those pistol length barrels.
 
How long do you want to listen to your ears ringing?
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Sorry, but.. story time!!!

As my squad and I were patrolling absolutely nothing outside of Baghdad in the early days of OIF1 we happened upon an old, abandoned factory or warehouse or something. Being bored and having rifles and a combat load plus of ammo we decided to set up some live fire scenarios inside the building. Why not? I was the first to go. The scenario started in a concrete walled administrative reception area. My first shot was... shocking. I forgot ear protection. I was momentarily stunned. I found some foamies and finished the exercise. Then, and now, I wondered if, if all other factors being the same, and that were an actual combat encounter with real bad guys instead of pallets as targets, the adrenaline in my blood would supersede the momentary paralysis I felt by firing an M-16 in a confined space. I suppose I am fortune to not have the experiences to answer that curiosity.

I apologize if I have hijacked this thread.

Anyway, my HD gun of choice is a 9mm automatic handgun. With young children in the house a handgun is much easier to secure out of sight/out of mind than a long gun.
 
As Jeff Cooper would say, it's the Combat Mindset that counts.
Biggest argument against house clearing is that if you have a family and haven't worked out and rehearsed defensive plans a friendly fire incident is a real danger.
IIRC when combat in Vietnam started the .223 was touted as having superior stopping power because it would tumble on impact. I would like to see some tests comparing penetration of drywall of FMJ vs soft point hunting ammo.
Fighting 3 intruders with a handgun ? Jim Cirillo did pretty well using a 38 Special against 3 armed individuals. Again, I think we're too hung up on this
"zapped by lightning" concept of stopping power, we need to think about "threat neutralization".
 
The number one factor in stopping someone is shot placement. When talking about mammals though, people confuse shot placement with hitting said mammal in a designated 8" surface area. There is more to it than that.

Having said that, when I take new shooters out for the "I want a gun for home defense" range trip, the usual best accuracy results from pistol caliber or intermediate caliber long guns. Above that and recoil and muzzle blast start to kick in, and practically none of them shoot as well or as quickly with a pistol. Most of them usually do OK with the shotgun; but many are put off by the recoil and small statured men and most women have a hard time manipulating tactical shotguns with the extended magazines because of the ammo weight and location.

Honestly, if you are concerned about misses, it seems the opposite of common wisdom would apply. An AR15 can be less penetrative inside a home and a 12ga can be more useful outside since buckshot won't be travelling 200yds with any kind of energy.
 
I have switched from a 5.56 AR carbine, to a 9mm AR carbine, for home defense. Shooting a 5.56 inside a confined space without ear protection would be devastating. I have fired the 9mm carbine in an enclosed space without ear protection, and it isn't pleasant, but its not as bad as I assume the 5.56 would be. I also have switched from a 9mm AR Pistol, to the 9mm AR Carbine, because I find the carbine is easier to manipulate, at least for me. I keep a small 45 handgun, for the first engagement. The AR carbine is the backup.
 
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