AP rounds

K

Kodiac

New member
You guys may have heard about the officer who was killed in Richmond s few weeks ago. He was my friend... Any ways the same day, two Security Officers got shot later that night while trying to make some arrests. Now, I dont know these guys - but word was that these two could really walk the walk and were pretty high speed guys. They wore kevlar vests when the went in and were both armed.
The shooting started and one sec officer was killed. the other severely wounded and was sent to MCV where he is there still - in critical condition. The interesting thing is this... the rounds had PENETRATED the Sec Officer's vest. I was under the impression that every one in this fire fight was armed with handguns! If that was the case then this is the first documented occasion were a law enforcement officer (You police officers don't get your feather's rufled - NRA devides Law Enforcement into 2 types "Public" and "Private." And the way I see it - Some of these State Registered Sec Officer's who have the authority to arrest as these two guys did... deserve the title everybit as much as the Public boys in blue.) - has been killed by a handgun bullet that penetrating his vest.
This makes me a little worried, and glad I am not out on the line anymore!

Oh, and Mongo was killed by 4 9mm hits that penetrated his windshield... That is interesting because I have shot many a windshield with all the popular calibers and in all popular bullet weights, and found that 9mm really doesn't like going through heavy auto glass. Wish I had a dollar for every round that didn't! This only shows "when you time is up... it's up."
 
First, let me say that I agree with you Kodiac. I have spent a lot more time as a "security officer" than as a sworn officer and there are defenitely two breeds.

Anyway, off the top of my head, I wonde if they had sub-standard equipment. Ie- old vest, perhaps even leftovers from a local PD. The ratings on various vests can be effected by many things, including storage conditions. It is entirely possible that they were wearing threat level IIa of lighter and came up against someone too large for that vest to handle. I know that in a world of .380 lorcins and 9mm Everythings it is hard to beleive, but there are some very potent handguns out there.
There is a relatively small amount of 9mm steel core from germany (115 grain?) out there that is some very hard to stop stuff, though it is unlikely that street punks had this kind of stuff. What were the circumstances?
 
What about a 22LR? Is my understanding that this fast little round will penetrate many types of body armor correct?
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 11-04-98).]
 
K,

These were body armor, or flak vests? Is it known whether they went up against full-auto fire?

I had heard the same statistic-i.e. that no police officer in the U.S. had been killed by being shot through his body armor. Of course there's WACO...BTW, did they autopsy those ATF to determine what caliber(s) they were drilled with? I heard from two sources that the ATF had a custom 9mm penetrator round they were using...interesting indeed, the way they were hosing down the compound and later claiming to have "the children's" best interest at heart.
(Sorry for the digression. Perhaps I should start another thread?)
 
Spectre, I have a feeling we've all been down THAT thread before....

I Know that .22 WMR will defeat IIa (I've seen it). I don't know If I am ready to believe .22LR, at least not with enough energy left to do much afterward, even a Mini-Mag or similar round.
 
these are N.I.J. Standards

THREAT LEVEL I Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Cal. 40 Grain LR 6 1050 320
.25 Cal. Auto 50 Grain FMC 2 810 247
.32 Cal. Auto 71 Grain FMC 4 905 276
.380 Cal. Auto 88 Grain JHP 4 990 302
.28 Cal. Special Lead 158 Grain 6 850 259
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain SWC 6 850 259




THREAT LEVEL II-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Mag. 40 Grain Solid Point 6 ½ 1180 360
.38 Cal. Special 125 Grain SJHP+P 6 1028 314
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain Lead +P 6 1090 332
.38 Cal. Special 110 Grain JHP+P 6 1235 377
.45 Cal. Auto 230 Grain M.C. 5 810 247
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 4 1250 381
.357 Mag.158 Grain Lead SWC 4 1253 382
.41 Mag. 210 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1080 329
9MM 95 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 100 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 4 1090 332
9MM 115 Grain JHP 4 1160 354
9MM 147 Grain Subsonic JCE 5 1050 319
9MM 147 Grain JHP 5 1050 319
10MM 170 Grain JHP 5 1172 357
10MM 200 Grain Full Jacket TC 5 1072 327




THREAT LEVEL II Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.41 Mag. 210 Grain SP 4 1300 397
.44 Mag. 240 Grain SJSP 4 1180 360
.44 Mag. 240 Grain Lead 4 1200 366
.357 Mag. 125 Grain JHP 4 1450 442
.357 Mag. 110 Grain JHP 4 1550 473
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 6 1395 425
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP-Hornady 6 1445 441
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1410 430
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 5 1175 358
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 4 1200 366
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 4 1150 351
9MM Geco 123 Grain GMC 4 1200 366
9MM Canadian 116 5 1250 381
9MM Israli 4 1200 366
9MM Cavim-FMJ 4 1110 339




THREAT LEVEL III-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.44 Mag. 240 Gr. SWC (Gas Checked) 6 1400 427
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 9 ½ 1400 427
9MM Canadian 116 Grain FMJ 16 1400 427
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 16 1325 404
9MM Geco 123 Grain FMC 16 1310 400
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 16 1445 441
9MM Israeli 16 1300 397




THREAT LEVEL III Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps
7.62 NATO Ball 150 Grain FMJ (308) 28 2750
30.06 PSP 180 Grain 24 2700
.30 Carbine 110 Grain FMJ 18 1950
12 Gauge Rifled Slug 18 1550
.223 55 Grain FMJ (5.56 MM) 20 3075
7.62 x 39 150 Grain FMJ 22 2400




THREAT LEVEL IV Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps
30.06 A.P. 166 Grain 26 2850
 
I am not sure about just the exact circumstances... but I was under the impression the was a HANDGUN FIGHT.

Many officer have been killed - shot through the vests - but those were not done by HANDGUNS. I never heard of any instance where the officer was even fired at by a guy with a... say JDJ contender cannon monster killer gun.

I think these bad guys were armed with Glocks, in 9 and 40.
The vests are unknown... but the stats say NO deaths by handguns through an officers vest...
not an officer's 5 years or newer level II or above vest... if you know what I mean.

I had a set of level IV... part of my "Ninja Turtle" gear - but I sold it to a new officer when I got out. Safariland makes the best vests... It could stop SKS's fore sure and that was our considerations... I dont know about an '06... that could kill you even if it didn't penetrate, just from the impact force trauma!
I cought a 230 grain .45 to the sturnum wearing level III armour. Still have the slug too. I had a busted sturnum and couldn't inhale very deep for a good long time. Let me tell you about pain - friends brought over a Steve Martin movie a week after the shooting... thought I was going to die.
 
Thanks for the list, SD, I've been looking for one like that....

I uderstand 100% where you are coming from with that stat, Kodiac. I'm starting to wonder if it is an Urban Legend.
 
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