AOL Fires employees in Utah

J

John/az2

New member
This from an email I received today:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
From: FF2B Moose ff2bmoose@a...
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Date: Saturday, October 21, 2000 9:22 AM
Subject: Utah - Anti Gun issue. Please read.
Hello there,

In advance, I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Here is
the story I have to tell. It's a story that I, that we 3 involved,feel
that all gun owners need to hear.
My name is Luke Hansen. I live in Clinton, Utah. I've been married for 4
and a half years, and am expecting my first baby (girl) in February. My
two friends are Jason Melling, and Paul Carlson. Jason has been married
for about 2 years and has just bought a house. Paul is not married. Paul
and I are both Utah state Concealed Weapons Permit holders (CCW).
The three of us worked for America Online (AOL) in Ogden, Utah. We've
worked there for varying numbers of years. Paul for 2, Jason for about
3, and myself for over 4 years. All 3 of us were good employees, great
reviews, good stats, and not "Problem" employees.

On September 14th, Jason, Paul and I met after work in the AOL parking
lot to go shooting. This parking lot is open to the public, and denoted
as AOL's only by white stripes for the stalls. Jason took his .30-06 in
a case, and his S&W 9 mm (again, in a case) from his car, walked 10-15
feet and placed them in my truck. Paul took his .45 long colt in a
holster, and >his KBI (7.62x39) not in a case, and walked 5-10 feet and
placed them in my truck as well. I waited patiently, never once touching
the guns. We left the AOL parking lot to go shooting at the gun range
just outside of Eden, Utah.

The following Monday, the three of us were fired for violation of
company policy - Weapons on premises. AOL allows no weapons anywhere
that they deem their property. Inside the building, or anywhere in the
parking lot that they lease. If you're an AOL employee in that lot
anywhere with a gun, you will be terminated. If you are a non AOL
employee, or a customer of one of the other stores in that mall, you are
fine. AOL's no weapons note inside the building states that they are
classified as a "Secure Facility" under state law. Well, Utah State law
says that Secure Facilities are only Airport Terminals, Court Houses,
Olympic Venues, jails, federal buildings and Mental institutions (UCA
76-10-523.5).

AOL's illegal company policies do more than just restrict what happens
on their leased property. It restricts what their gun owning employees
do to and from work. As well as their CCW/Employees do to and from work.
By not allowing them in their employees cars (Again, legal under state
law in the constitution: Article 1 Sec. 6, and UCA 76-10-501.i). Their
policy restricts their employees to carry a gun in their car to go
hunting after work, or to go to the gunsmith on lunch. It restricts CCW
holders from lawfully carrying their gun to and from work.

AOL has violated several different express Utah Public Policies, Utah's
State Constitution, and the Second Amendment to the US Constitution by
firing us 3.
The 3 of us have began to take legal action against AOL for wrongful
termination. We have enlisted the help of J. Vilos, Attorney, and author
of "Utah Gun Law: Good, Bad and Ugly." If AOL is allowed to continue
with illegal company policies like this, then ALL companies in Utah can
adopt similar policies. Your employer can whittle away at your gun
rights, and get away with it. The 3 of us have chosen to take a stand,
because this is something that we feel very deeply about. We believe
that this is truly an issue that affects ALL Utah gun owners and ALL
Utah CCW carriers. These aren't just our rights that were violated, they
are your rights too.

We are looking for any help that can be offered by any Utah gun owners
who feel as strongly about their gun rights as we do. Any help that you
can give, be it monetary, some resources that we may have overlooked,
knowledge that we may not have that may aid us, personal contacts you
feel we should get in touch with, or even a "Good luck, I stand behind
you" would be greatly appreciated.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to read this. ~ Luke Hansen
You can reach me at: FF2BMoose@a... or at (801)776-0081[/quote]

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.!

See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html
 
I live in Utah and will contact this number to confirm it's not a hoax. I have met "Mitch" Vilos, and his card is taped to the back of my CCW. Looks like we might be gettin a little TRT going here...
 
TRT Utah is in the works. If you can help out in any way please contact me at ShaunG@trteam-ut.com. It is definitly time we get more serious at protecting our rights in Utah. Let's give them hell.

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Being a pessimist is great, I'm always right or pleasantly surprised.
 
Ok just talked to Mr. Hansen and it's true. Suit was filed on Fri in Weber county with James "Mitch" Vilos as attorney.

There is a e-mail list being organized on this and I'll post more info as it comes in.
If your interested e-mail me and I'll put you on a forwarding list.

This is a classic example of a company using rules written in one state, (probably California) and attempting to enforce them in another state. As I understand it, this is the first of it's kind in Utah, and could set precidence for other suit/actions of this kind.
My company is also based out of Calf. and fortunately the state management has seen fit to take a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy, after a "conversation" I had with a VP. He mentioned "guns might be inappropriate in the workplace" and I stated; "Yeah, I really wouldn't want to be the first company in Utah who pulled that (banning) crap" then gave my 1 min legal brief on Utah law. Never heard a thing since.

Damn I love the Net!



------------------
"Take your weapon with reluctance. Draw it with dread. Grieve for those who fall to your bullets. But make every shot count."-Robert Shea
 
Even when I had friggin' cent in my pocket, I never went so low to go
to AOL for internet access. In geek circles, AOL is considered to be
an ISP for dummies.



[This message has been edited by mussi (edited October 28, 2000).]
 
They wouldn't have been able to do this in Oklahoma! I worked there from 96-99 and they were attached to a Mall. Once your in the door thats another story! Give em hell! There are a few reasons why I left that company!

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Try to take away my gun...and you will see my 2nd Amendment Right in ACTION!!! -Me

The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson
 
I'll be the devil's advocate here.

This case isn't about discriminating against gun-owners because they are gun owners. It's about violation of a contract. The company policy says you can't have firearms on company property. The employees violated that policy and were fired. Too bad for them - what did they expect?

Of course I'm against such a policy, but it was part of the agreement made when the employees accepted employment.

-z
 
I doubt that company policy in and of itself can be considered a contract. It can and does change daily in big and small companies, with and with out the knowledge of the employees. It takes two to make a contract.
In any case, a contract to do things that are illegal can never be upheld. Its not clear that AOL is even within its leagal rights here, much less that it has made contracts with other individuals.
 
Keep us posted, I'm always up for crushing AOL.

Smithz, its a policy instituted to impress and placate yuppies' flavor of the month political position. Bury them

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
considering the cubefarm sweat factory environment that AOL runs, its no wonder they are nervous about armed employees

dZ
 
I can see how they adopted that policy under the pretense of preventing "workplace violence". That's pretty common for most employers including my own(ha about us not bringing guns or knives to work). If those polices are contrary to public law, you should have grounds for reinstatement. Go see a labor attorney and BURN THEM.
 
If X amount of spaces are mentioned in the lease as AOL ONLY and this area is CLEARLY marked these folks might have a problem . If not AOL cannot arbitrarily decide what is and what is not their property . They might win this battle but the war has just begun . The targets they shot at on that day will be on their backs if their suit is successful .Companies hate to have employees stuck back down their throats by the courts . They better get big settlements and start their own company .
Good luck to them .

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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
What paratrooper said. Also, they probably violated some "due process" procedures by just up and firing them instead of allowing them to defend their actions.

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"Charlton Heston is my President"

Danny45
NRA, NAHC, Buckmasters
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smithz:
I'll be the devil's advocate here.

This case isn't about discriminating against gun-owners because they are gun owners. It's about violation of a contract. The company policy says you can't have firearms on company property. The employees violated that policy and were fired. Too bad for them - what did they expect?

Of course I'm against such a policy, but it was part of the agreement made when the employees accepted employment.

-z[/quote]

Based on the limited information in that email, I would agree. It sucks, but they agreed to the policy by working there. AOL sucks anyway.
 
Have to agree, they're not in a strong position legally. It's true, you can't contract with somebody to do something illegal, but you CAN contract with them to REFRAIN from doing something legal, on your property.

Their best bet would be if they could claim that the company policy hadn't been communicated to them properly. That, and the CCWs; They could argue in court that the CCWs gave them imunity out in the parking lot, anyway, if not in the building. Finally, they could argue under that they understood the policy to be based on the "secure facility" claim, which is false on the face of it.

Unless maybe AOL is claiming to be a booby hatch, which I might buy.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Yep, I really hate to say this, and it hope it isn't the case, but I would think that they're going to lose.

The parking lots and buildings are, in most states, considered to be private property, and their working there, and acception the conditions of employment, constitutes a contract.

They wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on in Virginia, and I'm pretty certain they'd be out in the cold in Pennsylvnaia, too.

Hopefully they'll get lucky, though.

------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
Ky CCW laws state that an employer can prohibit an employee from carrying in a company vehicle but not in an employee vehicle. Toyota, probably the biggest factory in Ky started out by refusing to adhere to that law, but has since rescinded and agreed to comply. My wife, a school teacher has been prohibited from carrying in her vehicle by the local school board even though she has a CCW. They are using another statute which they say supercedes her right to carry. Thanks to a local Representative who helped sponsor the KY CCW, that problem is now being addressed as he has asked the KY Attorney General to make a decision on the matter.
 
Man you go away for a few hours...

Utah law states that employers CAANOT limit the employees right to legaly Carry in the work place. UNLESS the place has been posted as "secured". A secured work place means that it is posted as such, and that there is at least one employee armed during working hours. In the first post it is clearly stated that AOL is not a secured workplace.

Second. If an employer choses to restrict thier employee's rights, then the employer is responsible to have a secured locked box (see Al Gore) so the employee can lock the firearm up in a safe manner while at work. With out having to leave it in the car on public property.
 
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