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Anyone know what this old french side by side is?
- Thread starter ssteve
- Start date
oneounceload
Moderator
The 17.0 in mm equates to .669, or a 16 gauge
The 65 will indicate 2.5" chambers
I cannot find the proof mark with the PT and Crown, but it should be the proof mark for St. Etienne, at least since 1897
The 65 will indicate 2.5" chambers
I cannot find the proof mark with the PT and Crown, but it should be the proof mark for St. Etienne, at least since 1897
No expert but...
The 65 is for 65 Millimeters, the chamber length. IOW, this is NOT for 2 3/4" or longer shells. While 2.5" shells are marketed here, best a decent smith looks this over before you try to shoot it.
Also, these barrels barrels may be Damascus or twist steel which translates into "Potential Grenade'.
I'd guess this is a 19th Century gun. Most shotguns were made with internal hammers by 1890.
again, I urge you to let a smith who'd you trust with your fingers and eyes (Because you are) go over this and decide if this is a shotgun or a shotgun shaped artifact.
The 65 is for 65 Millimeters, the chamber length. IOW, this is NOT for 2 3/4" or longer shells. While 2.5" shells are marketed here, best a decent smith looks this over before you try to shoot it.
Also, these barrels barrels may be Damascus or twist steel which translates into "Potential Grenade'.
I'd guess this is a 19th Century gun. Most shotguns were made with internal hammers by 1890.
again, I urge you to let a smith who'd you trust with your fingers and eyes (Because you are) go over this and decide if this is a shotgun or a shotgun shaped artifact.
The crown-PT is French.
www.doublegunshop.com/darne.htm
"PT (Poudre T) surmounted by one crown:
960 kg/cm²
PT surmounted by two crowns:
1370 kg/cm²
*Other nitro powders were also used.
The following marks are commom:
PR, PM, PJ and PS"
www.doublegunshop.com/darne.htm
"PT (Poudre T) surmounted by one crown:
960 kg/cm²
PT surmounted by two crowns:
1370 kg/cm²
*Other nitro powders were also used.
The following marks are commom:
PR, PM, PJ and PS"
"Poudre Pyroxylee" on the barrel flats means Nitro Powder.
"65" = 65mm chamber = 2-9/16" LOW-POWERED shells.
The gun was most likely made after 1925, when ammo companies introduced more powerful shotshells loaded with different powders to higher pressures, lengthening most shells & chambers to suit.
The changes of 1925 necessitated marking the long and short chambered barrels differently - before that date, since there WAS no longer ammo, there was no need.
Gun barrels chambered/proved, prior to 1924, would have been marked simply with a "12", "16", etc, maybe enclosed within a diamond or circle with the letter "c".
After 1924, though, gun barrels were required to be marked with the exact length - usually in MM for Euro guns - as in: 16/65, 16/70 (2-3/4"), 12/65, 12/70 & 12/76 (3").
IF a qualified double gunsmith (NOT an 870 parts-changer) OK's it as safe to fire, special, low-powered ammo is available from the likes of RST, PolyWad & others.
As posted above do NOT shoot ANY modern ammo through it - even so-called "low brass" or target loads.
The pressure curve of modern ammo is different, and the almost 100 y.o. metal of that gun is not of the same alloys as today's stronger steels.
It's most likely worth about a max of $200, +/-, since whomever made it wasn't proud enough to put their name on either barrels or lockplate(s).
.
"65" = 65mm chamber = 2-9/16" LOW-POWERED shells.
The gun was most likely made after 1925, when ammo companies introduced more powerful shotshells loaded with different powders to higher pressures, lengthening most shells & chambers to suit.
The changes of 1925 necessitated marking the long and short chambered barrels differently - before that date, since there WAS no longer ammo, there was no need.
Gun barrels chambered/proved, prior to 1924, would have been marked simply with a "12", "16", etc, maybe enclosed within a diamond or circle with the letter "c".
After 1924, though, gun barrels were required to be marked with the exact length - usually in MM for Euro guns - as in: 16/65, 16/70 (2-3/4"), 12/65, 12/70 & 12/76 (3").
IF a qualified double gunsmith (NOT an 870 parts-changer) OK's it as safe to fire, special, low-powered ammo is available from the likes of RST, PolyWad & others.
As posted above do NOT shoot ANY modern ammo through it - even so-called "low brass" or target loads.
The pressure curve of modern ammo is different, and the almost 100 y.o. metal of that gun is not of the same alloys as today's stronger steels.
It's most likely worth about a max of $200, +/-, since whomever made it wasn't proud enough to put their name on either barrels or lockplate(s).
.
Last edited:
Guild guns, and this is probably one, were made by consortiums of small shops in Europe. One shop would make the barrels, another the action and so on. Names on these were usually the retailers.
Whatever it is, if it's certified safe, it should make a nice uplander with proper ammo.
HTH.....
Whatever it is, if it's certified safe, it should make a nice uplander with proper ammo.
HTH.....
TheKlawMan
Moderator
What is that on the side of the breech lock? It looks like it says somethingut what I am looking at may be scrolling.
oneounceload
Moderator
Guild guns, and this is probably one, were made by consortiums of small shops in Europe. One shop would make the barrels, another the action and so on. Names on these were usually the retailers.
Many of the English "Best" guns were, and still are, made this way
Some of the best guns ever made were made that way, 1oz. As you know.
Some mediocre ones also. This falls in between, but where?
I hope this passes inspection. With some of Polywad's Vintager loads of proper length and pressure, it should be a delight.
Some older guns have excessive drop. More US guns than Euro. However, if this fits and can be fired, it should be.
Good guns do not have to be new or cost as much as a truck.
Some mediocre ones also. This falls in between, but where?
I hope this passes inspection. With some of Polywad's Vintager loads of proper length and pressure, it should be a delight.
Some older guns have excessive drop. More US guns than Euro. However, if this fits and can be fired, it should be.
Good guns do not have to be new or cost as much as a truck.
oneounceload
Moderator
Absolutely, a 2.5" 16 gauge will take a pheasant just as nicely as a Benelli auto or similar, within the respective distance capability of the ammo and the shooter. Some of the finest guns I have ever seen, handles and got to shoot were made in the 20s, 30s, and 50's in small shops in England, Austria, Belgium, and Italy. Sadly, they were (and still are), out of my financial stratosphere, but the workmanship is something to behold
I had one, a French boxlock by an unknown maker, Didier. You'd have liked it.
Guild guns were dufflebagged back to the US circa 1945, and many were and are good using shotguns.
Some are not, and most have been cursed by The Demon of Short Chambers.
With that problem resolved, they make great shooters mostly, though the mandatory inspection by a smith is even more needed.
Guild guns were dufflebagged back to the US circa 1945, and many were and are good using shotguns.
Some are not, and most have been cursed by The Demon of Short Chambers.
With that problem resolved, they make great shooters mostly, though the mandatory inspection by a smith is even more needed.