Anyone know how old this brass & primer are?
- Thread starter Clark
- Start date
Bob Wright
New member
The balloon head case and initialed primer probably date to some time prior to WW II. Hard to date ammunition specimens exactly. I bought some .45 Colt ammunition in 1954 that was mfg. in the late 'Thirties that was of balloon head construction.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
g.willikers
New member
Clark's second picture of the sectioned case clearly shows a balloon case construction.
The primer pocket is formed by pressing the bottom (the head) of the case upward, creating a pocket for the primer and gaps on the side, between the pocket and the internal sides of the case.
A modern case has a solid bottom with the primer pocket below.
A web search on the subject will yield all the info on case construction.
The primer pocket is formed by pressing the bottom (the head) of the case upward, creating a pocket for the primer and gaps on the side, between the pocket and the internal sides of the case.
A modern case has a solid bottom with the primer pocket below.
A web search on the subject will yield all the info on case construction.
Other than the historical accuracy of "period" ammo/brass, the one thing balloon head cases are needed for is getting full black powder load performance.
I don't have any personal experience with the .32-20, but I do with some other, larger rounds from that era, and you just cannot fit the full, original black powder charge in a modern solid head case.
For example, in the .45 Colt, the original powder charge was 40gr of black powder, in a balloon head case. Using every trick in the book, you can get about 38gr of powder in a solid head case.
The drawback to balloon head cases (other than their age, if original) is if you are looking at using modern smokeless powder, and increasing the pressure beyond original black powder specs. (example, "Ruger only" loads in .45 Colt, Ruger Blackhawk would be foolish to use balloon head cases, as the solid head brass handles pressure better).
I don't have any personal experience with the .32-20, but I do with some other, larger rounds from that era, and you just cannot fit the full, original black powder charge in a modern solid head case.
For example, in the .45 Colt, the original powder charge was 40gr of black powder, in a balloon head case. Using every trick in the book, you can get about 38gr of powder in a solid head case.
The drawback to balloon head cases (other than their age, if original) is if you are looking at using modern smokeless powder, and increasing the pressure beyond original black powder specs. (example, "Ruger only" loads in .45 Colt, Ruger Blackhawk would be foolish to use balloon head cases, as the solid head brass handles pressure better).
Mike Irwin
Staff
More precisely, that's actually a solid balloon head (SBH) case because it combines elements of the balloon head case with the much thicker brass of the solid head (or solid web) case.
They were formed using a different type of brass blank, IIRC a bar-shaped blank that was partially folded during the forming process, as opposed to the thick, coin-shaped blanks used in making today's solid head cases.
A true balloon head case has much thinner brass all around and was the next logical step from rimfire and inside primed centerfire cases.
SBH cases started to become more common in the late 1800 to early 1900s as brass drawing technology improved.
Many companies stuck with this technology well into the magnum (post 1935) era, for a number of reasons:
1. SBH cases were more than strong enough for most cartridges of the time, especially those that had their origins in the black powder era.
2. They were somewhat cheaper to produce as they used less brass than a solid head case.
3. They could be made on older machinery that had been paid for and still had life left in it, while the new, expensive machinery needed to make magnum style cases could be devoted to solid head cases.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that the last of the SBH cases were finally phased out after World War II. Most of the ammo companies had dramatically expanded their lines to meet military needs during the war so they could finally retire the old equipment. At the same time, production of a lot of the older cartridge types, which had been stopped for war-time production, wasn't resumed.
My guess is that those cases date from late 1930s. It's possible that they were produced after World War II, but I suspect that Remington didn't make .32-20 cases after the war.
All that said, can you reload them?
Probably. Just don't try to firewall them. They're plenty strong for the maximum pressures at which the .32-20 was designed to work.
They were formed using a different type of brass blank, IIRC a bar-shaped blank that was partially folded during the forming process, as opposed to the thick, coin-shaped blanks used in making today's solid head cases.
A true balloon head case has much thinner brass all around and was the next logical step from rimfire and inside primed centerfire cases.
SBH cases started to become more common in the late 1800 to early 1900s as brass drawing technology improved.
Many companies stuck with this technology well into the magnum (post 1935) era, for a number of reasons:
1. SBH cases were more than strong enough for most cartridges of the time, especially those that had their origins in the black powder era.
2. They were somewhat cheaper to produce as they used less brass than a solid head case.
3. They could be made on older machinery that had been paid for and still had life left in it, while the new, expensive machinery needed to make magnum style cases could be devoted to solid head cases.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that the last of the SBH cases were finally phased out after World War II. Most of the ammo companies had dramatically expanded their lines to meet military needs during the war so they could finally retire the old equipment. At the same time, production of a lot of the older cartridge types, which had been stopped for war-time production, wasn't resumed.
My guess is that those cases date from late 1930s. It's possible that they were produced after World War II, but I suspect that Remington didn't make .32-20 cases after the war.
All that said, can you reload them?
Probably. Just don't try to firewall them. They're plenty strong for the maximum pressures at which the .32-20 was designed to work.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Oh, a hint in identifying a balloon-head or solid balloon head case...
They don't have an extractor groove.
They don't have an extractor groove.
Bob Wright
New member
ckpj99 asked:
These are .45 Colt cases, the one on the left is a balloon head case:
The solid head case on the right is a much stronger case.
Bob Wright
These are .45 Colt cases, the one on the left is a balloon head case:
The solid head case on the right is a much stronger case.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
New member
Mike Irwin saith:
Mike, I don't think that was really intended as an extractor groove so much as a stress-relief groove.
Bob Wright
Mike, I don't think that was really intended as an extractor groove so much as a stress-relief groove.
Bob Wright
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Mike, I don't think that was really intended as an extractor groove so much as a stress-relief groove."
It's universally called an extractor groove.
It could have been intended to be a gathering place for pixie hodowns, but it would still be known as an extractor groove.
Rimless cases have had extractor grooves that literally fulfill that function since pretty much day one, literally for the extractor to grab on to.
It made sense for the companies to call it an extractor groove even if it wasn't.
And even if pixies didn't gather there.
That said, however, I just remembered one case that didn't have an extractor/stress/pixie groove from day of design...
The .225 Winchester.
And it came out in 1964...
It's universally called an extractor groove.
It could have been intended to be a gathering place for pixie hodowns, but it would still be known as an extractor groove.
Rimless cases have had extractor grooves that literally fulfill that function since pretty much day one, literally for the extractor to grab on to.
It made sense for the companies to call it an extractor groove even if it wasn't.
And even if pixies didn't gather there.
That said, however, I just remembered one case that didn't have an extractor/stress/pixie groove from day of design...
The .225 Winchester.
And it came out in 1964...
Bob Wright
New member
Call it what you will. It's the first time I ever heard it called that, and I will stubbornly continue to call it a relief groove unless it it actually cut for an extractor, with all due respect.
Bob Wright
Mike Irwin
Staff
" It's the first time I ever heard it called that"
Really?
The first time?
Do you have a Donnelly book of cartridge conversions?
He makes references to recutting the extractor groove on cases when forming to other cases.
I can't imagine that the groove would be necessary to relieve strain on the case head given annealing does that rather nicely.
Here's a link to an online page of Patrick Sweeney's book on gunsmithing rifles that talks about the extractor groove...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eu...EwATgK#v=onepage&q="extractor groove"&f=false
Really?
The first time?
Do you have a Donnelly book of cartridge conversions?
He makes references to recutting the extractor groove on cases when forming to other cases.
I can't imagine that the groove would be necessary to relieve strain on the case head given annealing does that rather nicely.
Here's a link to an online page of Patrick Sweeney's book on gunsmithing rifles that talks about the extractor groove...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eu...EwATgK#v=onepage&q="extractor groove"&f=false
Mike Irwin
Staff
Except that the .32-20 was never chambered in an N frame, only the K frame.
I have a 1922 Colt Army Special 32-20 with 0.11" thick chamber walls that I have not shot yet, but I know theoretically could take all kinds of pressure, if the brass does not fail.
I don't want to be doing any balloon head brass strength tests with that old revolver. The action is smooth as my Python. I did not pay much for it, but I have not been able to find any more like that.
I don't want to be doing any balloon head brass strength tests with that old revolver. The action is smooth as my Python. I did not pay much for it, but I have not been able to find any more like that.
