Anyone know any ex-Nazis?

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Lavan

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Someone, somewhere MUST know someone who was in the German Army in WW2.
I would like to know if the guys in the field PREFERRED the Luger or the P-38 since both were issued at that time.
Just curiosity. Have never seen any comments about which one the actual soldiers preferred.
Any comments appreciated.
 
Sorry I can't help you, but perhaps you should re-phrase your question to ask "does anyone know any German WWII vets. Not all rank and file soldiers were Nazis, in fact, much of the military despised Hitler and the Nazis.
 
I don't think I know any former or current Nazis but I do know a former WWII German soldier. When I last talked to him about WWII arms, he expressed a strong liking for the Russian PPsH 41 submachine gun. He was on the eastern front. Then the MP-40. He did not want a pistol.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I either read this somewhere and I don't remember where, or I heard this on the Tales of the Gun the the P-38 became the preferred weapon because they had less problems.
Also a side note to Atticus, The German Submariners hated Hitler also.

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
 
Yeah. Ex-SS rottenfuhrer (corporal) at Auschwitz. Lied his way into the US on his visa application in the early '50s. OSI connected the dots and found him in 1992 and I served the warrant on him. Two weeks later he blew his brains out.

I felt just terrible about it.



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Lavan,

I had a friend of a friend whose father drove tanks in WW2 -- for the other side. I'm sure the old man has passed on by now. He was old when I last saw him almost 20 years ago... He was already in his late 20s during the war, so that would put him in his mid eighties now.

I have another friend whose father (deceased also) was a ww2 vet. He confiscated a CZ 27 in 7.65 from a German. Friend still has the gun.

Sorry, can't be of much further help.
 
Yes, know/knew several...

A good friend's Grandfather was an ardent Nazi in the 1930s, but apparently enthusiasm waned as it became evident that it was going to mean he was going to have to serve.

He became a VIRULENT anti-Nazi after the 6th Army was hung out to dry in Russia. He was captured, and was one of only a few thousand to make it back to Germany alive 10 years after the war ended.

During his stay with the Russians, he became a VIRULENT anti-communist.

Same friend's father was a member of the Hitler Youth (pretty much required at that time. His older brother was killed early in 1945 as a 17-year-old conscript.

Sorry, don't know if either of them carried Lugers/Walthers, although the grandfather, a machine gunner, may have.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Regarding that whole Nazi thing. I really get mad when I hear them referred to as such. Many WW2 German vets were good guys, who lived crappy lives due to the Treaty of Versailles, and had every right to lash out at Europe. They didn't invade because they were evil, they invaded because their lives were crappy, and they were being oppressed by the countries around them. This doesn't excuse the attrocities commited, but many of the Germans really were not bad people, and had Hitler not been the madman he was, the whole German war effort probably would be seen with a different light these days. For instance, when the Germans started to invade Russia, the Russian peasants viewed them as liberators in many places, but then Hitler and his commanders got nervous about a few Russian guerillas, so he started the scorched earth campaign, effectively requiring that Germans kill every Russian they saw. Germany could have armed those Russians that actually wanted them there and used them to defeat Russia, and could have been a good thing for Russia, but they didn't. The whole point is, when looking at WW2 Germany, you must realize that it was not an open state, and information wasn't free to anyone. You heard what the state wanted you to hear, and if you spoke up, you'd probably be killed. Those Germans that fought were not all Nazis.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
One of my best friends in primary school was Holger Price. It was 12 months before I found out his name was actually Preuss. His Dad was an ordinary "grunt" in the German Army. Didn't have much time for Hitler or Nazis.

Only spoke spoke about guns once or twice -- but couldn't give a hoot about handguns -- his preferred weapon was the long rifle -- a KAR 98 from memory.

He was absolutely appalled at the fact that some Aussies thought of him as a "Nazi". (In our defence, the war had only been over 10 or so years, and feelings were still pretty high.)

B
 
I know a guy who was a Hitler Youth, and one of the few survivors of what I gather was a reinforced company of kids thrown into the war at the end. He was 16 years old - and an officer - when captured by US forces in 1945.

Like many POW's, he spent 2 years after the war was over as a slave laborer in a French coal mine. To this day, his opinions of the French involve a lot of words with only four letters...

He carried only an 8mm rifle - doesn't remember any pistols, SMG's, or any of those fancy STG's in his outfit, though they did have an MG42 and some Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks. (sp?)
 
One of my Russian professors was the former director of the main economic
bureau for the city of Rostov-on-the-Don (River). He said when the Germans
invaded the city, there were hundreds of German soldiers walking into the
city on one side of the street - and thousands of Russian soldiers walking into
the city on the other side of the street. Soviet soldiers outnumbered the
Germans by at least 20 to 1.

Germans were greeted as liberators in Rostov. Russian families were in the
streets extending platters of bread and salt (a traditional sign of welcome)
to the Germans.

As noted above, had the German effort been publicly motivated by
liberty, freedom, or economics (rather than the public concept of “the master
race”), the German effort would have attracted many East Europeans who
were ready and willing to revolt against the Communist Party.

Many Soviets agreed they were “radishes” - very red on the outside but white
on the inside.

Some Germans admitted they were once Nazis. Only a few continued to
believe in Nazi doctrine. Most said they merely complied as required at the
time - sort of “go along to get along”. Before we condemn them for not
fighting the Nazi movement, think about all the unconstitutional laws,
executive orders, regulations and other such directives we live with
today and tacitly accept.
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I knew several people who had been prisoners of the Soviets for various
reasons. Some were Germans - former POWs from WWII who were released
in the late 1950s and early 1960s. IIRC, they favored “machine pistols” and
argued about the good and bad points of German v. Soviet offerings.
-----

I would believe Oleg would be a great source of info.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 25, 2000).]
 
I used the word, "Nazi" to save space on the header and out of ignorance. My apologies to the non-Nazis who still shot the guts out of every American soldier they could get in their sights.

Mea culpa. Mea MAXIMA culpa.
 
Dangus,

Your points about Germany's economics would have been true in the 1920s/early 1930s, but by the time the war actually started, the German people enjoyed one of the best standards of living on the Continent, certainly much better than the average Russian or the Japanese at the same time.

What generally isn't recognized about Hitler is that his economic and social reforms from the early 1930s to 1939, especially those in response to the Depression, were much like those employed in the United States under the New Deal.

By the time War rolled around, though, Hitler had worked the German people into a virtual frenzy by seizing on the punative nature of the Treaty of Versailles and how it put millions of ethnic Germans out of the greater Reich.

Repatriotizing these Germans (the Suedetenland Germans, the German Poles) was one of the early rallying cries in this effort, and was part of the early driving force behind British appeasement.

Another interesting thing is that the Sudetenland Germans were never part of Greater Germany. Prior to World War I they had been part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Hitler used many facetious accounts of atrocities against ethnic Germans in these areas to fan public sentiment, much the same way that he manufactured the incident at the radio station on the Polish German border that was used as the excuse for invasion.

According to a number of Germans I know who were alive at this time, but are now residents of the United States, including the people I referenced above, there was quite a bit of shock among the German citizenry when the German army seized the whole of Czechoslovakia. The view was "why"? They're not ethnic Germans.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I don't know what the preference in the German Army was, but in the USSR the peacetime preference was for selfloading rifle, submachine gun and revolver, in that order (weight to looks ratio). During the war, SMG, rifle and pistol won over based on effectiveness for close-range self-defense and ease of cleaning.
 
Mike, you are right, but what I meant was.... the terrible economics were a result of that influence in Berlin, and the people that were affected by the changes Hitler put into place were mad as hell that they had to violate the treaty in order to actually achieve that sort of prosperity. There was a lot of anger, and even a lot of desensitivity to war, that were a result of WW1, and made WW2 a lot easier to wage.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Lavan, If I am not mistaken, isnt the job of soldiers to kill the soldiers on the other side? Guess what, we killed a hell of alot of Germans as well, both civilian and military.
 
I don't want to get into a war here but If a country does what Germany did in WW1 shouldn't they be punished?People say that WW2 was a result of the reperations and resrictions put on Germany after WW1.
I am a firm believer in responsibility for ones actions.The millions killed in WW1 and the horrors of the trench warfare demanded some form of punishment.
I had an uncle that served front line in the 1st war.The only thing that got him out was a good shot of mustard gas.He was a mean SOB but I guess with what he went through there he had good reason.From I was told he spent 18 months at the front.
As far as conditions in Germany go do some checking.Berlin was a great party spot in the 20s.THe rich still had money.In the 30s the Germans probably lived better then people in the US.Remember we had a great depression in the 30s.
I guess thats my opinion for what it is worth.


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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Dennis - Your last comment in your first post was right on the nose. I just finished an extended University study on the Nazi movement (not that that makes me an expert, but I finally learned about a subject that I always wanted to know more about.)

It is so easy to sit here now and criticize the German people for going along with the Nazis but it just ain't that easy when YOU are the one suffering under a miltaristic, totalitarian, police State. You speak up, you get shot dead. Even others that agree with you if you speak up will run the other way to save their own skin. If you speak up, you are on your own, and they will simply come and kill you.
Not only that but the whole Jew killing thing was encroached very slowly and quietly. For one small example, propaganda said that the Jews enjoyed the "reeducation" camps and did not want to leave. The average person had no idea of the atrocities going on. All they knew is that if they did not greet their neighbor with "Hiel Hitler" instead of "good afternoon", then someone would put in an anonymous phone call and the SS would come take them away. (Seems like we are not far away from that in America - an anonymous phone call with any given accusation, and the Police come take you away and it is up to you to prove your innocence. How many steps are we from a Police State?). On the topic, Are we so sure that we would do anything differently if we were unarmed and under a murderous totalitarian gov't? What do you do when the gov't goes sour and you are unarmed, and if you speak up they kill you??? That is reality, and I hope it never happens with our gov't (other countries are not so lucky, they are already there). If you asked Germans in 1932 if they thought that in ten years time they would be ruled by a totolitarian murderous bigot, they would have scoffed at the idea. In America, the average person could never imagine that that could happen in ten years, or twenty, but we never know what can happen when the gov't get's out of control. History is our lesson.
What we would really do in that situation is something I hope to never know.

One thing I do know for sure though, and that is that if the regular German populace and surrounding areas had open access to guns, it could not have happened. The SS was not a large organization, and they murdered about 11 million people (not including war fronts but just murdering people in their own cities and occupied territories for various racial and behavioral reasons). Now tell me, how could a relatively small group of hate mongers have murdered 11 million ARMED people? It could not have happened!

For example, how would Reserve Police Batallion 101 have pulled up into the Warsaw Jewish ghetto and start murdering thousands of Jews in the streets and in the woods, if those Jews had been armed? Imagine for a moment (this is not fantasy, a but reality) that a few truckloads of middle aged guys pull up into your neighborhood, get out with guns, and start kicking down doors and shooting your neighbors, and gathering up others and taking them to the woods to shoot them. Men, women, children. They killed people all day long. After they gathered up as many as they could and stripped their valuables, the battalion would take them all out in truckloads to the woods to kill them. They would walk down the lines of women and children and put bullets into people's heads for hours at a time (I can hardly imagine that) and then go get drunk to drown the horror of what they just did. So, maybe less than 100 middle aged volunteers with guns managed to murder thousands of Jews a day, with little or no resistance because the Jews were helpless and unarmed. This is reality, even though it is hard to imagine it happening in your own neighborhood, the people were in as much shock as we would be because no one can even fathom this kind of thing happening in their neighborhood. But it did, and this is only one lesson from history.

The Nazis were hugely outnumbered by their victims....but the Nazis had guns and the victims did not. An armed populace makes this type of tyranny impossible. It all comes down to gun control.


Sorry for the rambling...



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 25, 2000).]
 
Lavan -

Back in the 80s one of my friends was a WWII infantry vet. He had extensive combat experience with the 90th Division in France (D-Day, Normandy, Lorraine, the Bulge, Germany), and was pretty competent, too, rising from private to staff sergeant with a couple of Purple Hearts and a couple of Silver Stars thrown in. One night when we were talking about his experiences he showed me the Luger the widow of his former regimental commander gave him.

He didn't think too highly of the Luger. He thought it was a relatively complicated pistol with a toggle-joint breech action that was prone to jamming unless keep extremely clean. Finicky about ammo, too. He liked the Walther much better. More modern design (the Luger dated back to WWI), more reliable, capable of a double-action first shot. The Walther could also use British 9mm ammo as well as German issue. He always regretted having to throw away the two P38s he had.

The more elite units he was up against (paratroop and Waffen SS) where better armed. Those units seemed to favor the P38.

The problem with the Luger was highlighted by the story on how his ex-CO got the pistol in questions. Seems that one night while the outfit was in Normandy the Germans launched a night attack on the regimental CP. A young German Leutnant broke into the command tent, pointed the Luger at the Colonel, and pulled the trigger. The Luger jammed, and the Colonel coolly dispatched the Leutnant with the business end of a entrenching tool.

Semi-off-topic - I did know one ex-Wehrmacht Russian front veteran back when I was in high school. I dated his daughter for awhile, and I still chuckle when I remember giving her my reasons why I thought she wasn't going to get that local VFW scholarship ("but my vater was in a foreign war, no?"). :)
 
Red Bull--you are correct (I read the Unit 101 book, too). If we made a list of all the ethnic/political groups who never thought 'it could happen to them' it would be a very long list indeed.

An armed population makes door-battering a very hazardous occupation indeed.

We can deal with the criminals in our midst. Governments are the killers par excellence that we need to watch most carefully.

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