You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Anybody loading Sierra 77gr TMKs in .223?
- Thread starter DarthNul
- Start date
Nope not used them yet but want too . Do you load the regular 77s ? 23gr of IMR-4895 works pretty good in my Service rifle . I'm going to try IMR 4064 and H-335 next .
I have not loaded any tipped bullets in my AR's or any auto loaders for that matter . Please update the thread when you do , I'd like to know how they do .
good luck
I have not loaded any tipped bullets in my AR's or any auto loaders for that matter . Please update the thread when you do , I'd like to know how they do .
good luck
I've tried them at magazine length and extended length that needed a single shot mag in my Les Baer Super Varmint with an 18 inch barrel.
Here are the results with 5 round groups:
Powder load ------ OAL ---FPS ------ Avg
CFE223 24.0 ---- 2.260 -- 2671 ---- 0.469
N140 22.5 ------ 2.265 -- 2635 ---- 0.362
N140 22.7 ------ 2.298 -- 2640 ---- 0.344
RL-15 23.1 ----- 2.266 -- 2675 ---- 0.340
Varget 22.6 ----- 2.256 -- 2617 ---- 0.460
Note the 2.298 OAL needed the single shot mag.
I also shot the 69 gr TMKs in the same rifle (also 5 round group).
CFE223 24.2 ----- 2.258 -- 2714 --- 0.489
N140 22.6 ------- 2.263 -- 2719 --- 0.249
N140 23.0 ------- 2.291 -- 2694 --- 0.317
RL-15 23.5 ------ 2.260 -- 2722 --- 0.315
Varget 23.0 ----- 2.266 -- 2666 --- 0.452
Note the 2.291 OAL also needed the single shot mag.
Hope this helps.
Here are the results with 5 round groups:
Powder load ------ OAL ---FPS ------ Avg
CFE223 24.0 ---- 2.260 -- 2671 ---- 0.469
N140 22.5 ------ 2.265 -- 2635 ---- 0.362
N140 22.7 ------ 2.298 -- 2640 ---- 0.344
RL-15 23.1 ----- 2.266 -- 2675 ---- 0.340
Varget 22.6 ----- 2.256 -- 2617 ---- 0.460
Note the 2.298 OAL needed the single shot mag.
I also shot the 69 gr TMKs in the same rifle (also 5 round group).
CFE223 24.2 ----- 2.258 -- 2714 --- 0.489
N140 22.6 ------- 2.263 -- 2719 --- 0.249
N140 23.0 ------- 2.291 -- 2694 --- 0.317
RL-15 23.5 ------ 2.260 -- 2722 --- 0.315
Varget 23.0 ----- 2.266 -- 2666 --- 0.452
Note the 2.291 OAL also needed the single shot mag.
Hope this helps.
I've got some test loads ready for the range using TAC and RL-15. I hope to send them downrange this weekend. I have 4895 and Varget on hand if those don't work out, but hose would likely be compressed loads and my Redding seating die doesn't play well with compressed loads.
I thought I saw some load data on Sierra's site a few weeks ago but I can't find it now.
What seems weird is that the 77gr TMKs are longer than 80 gr SMKs yet they get loaded to mag length, which would mean seating them deeper in the case than 80gr SMKs which Sierra says should not be loaded to mag length.
I have loaded tipped bullets before in .223 (Hornady 55gr V-max) and .308 (155gr and 168gr A-max). They all shot well.
I shot a lot of 69gr SMKs last year for Tuesday night highpower league at my local gun club. I plan to shoot 69 and 77 grain Noslers this year, but I could shift to the TMKs later in the season if they're better.
I thought I saw some load data on Sierra's site a few weeks ago but I can't find it now.
What seems weird is that the 77gr TMKs are longer than 80 gr SMKs yet they get loaded to mag length, which would mean seating them deeper in the case than 80gr SMKs which Sierra says should not be loaded to mag length.
I have loaded tipped bullets before in .223 (Hornady 55gr V-max) and .308 (155gr and 168gr A-max). They all shot well.
I shot a lot of 69gr SMKs last year for Tuesday night highpower league at my local gun club. I plan to shoot 69 and 77 grain Noslers this year, but I could shift to the TMKs later in the season if they're better.
The reason for the deep seating on the TMK is the extended tip. Actually, with the deep seating the ogive is just out of the neck of a trimmed cartridge.
When you seat a TMK to fit into a AR magazine, the ogive is back in the neck.
The issue with the TMKs versus the SMKs is the difference in overall bullet length, not the ogive being too close to the rifling so pressure with the TMK should be lower with the bullet seated out further as long as the ogive isn't in the rifling.
The Nosler CCs shot OK with the same rifle but seemed to be more sensitive to loads.
Best loads at 100 yards with 5 round groups were:
N140 ---- 23.5 gr --- 2.260 OAL -- 2762 fps -- 0.264.
N140 ---- 24.0 gr --- 2.260 OAL -- 2824 fps -- 0.293.
The 69 grain Nosler CCs surprisingly didn't do as well.
You ought to also try Berger #22110 77 gr bullets.
They shot very well with Reloader 15 and averaged 0.268.
When you seat a TMK to fit into a AR magazine, the ogive is back in the neck.
The issue with the TMKs versus the SMKs is the difference in overall bullet length, not the ogive being too close to the rifling so pressure with the TMK should be lower with the bullet seated out further as long as the ogive isn't in the rifling.
The Nosler CCs shot OK with the same rifle but seemed to be more sensitive to loads.
Best loads at 100 yards with 5 round groups were:
N140 ---- 23.5 gr --- 2.260 OAL -- 2762 fps -- 0.264.
N140 ---- 24.0 gr --- 2.260 OAL -- 2824 fps -- 0.293.
The 69 grain Nosler CCs surprisingly didn't do as well.
You ought to also try Berger #22110 77 gr bullets.
They shot very well with Reloader 15 and averaged 0.268.
Rimfire:
What does the last number indicate in your data ? Is that moa @ 100yds ? If so , holy cow all your loads shoot well . I built a NM rifle and my best load is a 10 shot .8 moa group @ 100yds . I should add I've not done much to get there . Only have used one powder , primer type with out any fine tuning .
What does the last number indicate in your data ? Is that moa @ 100yds ? If so , holy cow all your loads shoot well . I built a NM rifle and my best load is a 10 shot .8 moa group @ 100yds . I should add I've not done much to get there . Only have used one powder , primer type with out any fine tuning .
Rimfire5 - My main concern with the deep seating of the TMKs is the decreased case volume available for powder and likely higher pressures compared to other 77 grain projectiles that don't need to be seated as deeply (given the same load). I haven't found any published load data for the TMKs so I'm starting out with data meant for other 77 gr bullets.
I always measure my chambers to determine max OAL for any new bullet in a particular gun. I usually back off at least 0.010 from the length at which the ogive contacts the lands. I've got one AR with a 5.56 chamber and another with a min-spec .223 chamber. There's a big difference between the two.
I always measure my chambers to determine max OAL for any new bullet in a particular gun. I usually back off at least 0.010 from the length at which the ogive contacts the lands. I've got one AR with a 5.56 chamber and another with a min-spec .223 chamber. There's a big difference between the two.
for this discussion, what is the length difference between the 77gr TMK versus the 77gr HPBT? I looked at the Sierra web site and didn't see where the lengths were mentioned. I did note in the descriptions that both are supposed to provide a coal suitable for AR15s. I'm out of 77gr HPBTs so I can not provide a measurement.
I've been chasing a good load for my 24", 1:8, for a while and can confirm (at least for this weapon) that H335 does NOT perform well with either 69gr or 77gr bullets. On the other hand H335 is fantastic with Hornady 55gr VMAX,
I have had much better success with Varget. You can anticipate compressed loads but the reloading manuals all predict this and I have not seen any pressure signs. Also I use the 10 round Magpul polymer magazines and they allow a slightly over length round to still function.
I've been chasing a good load for my 24", 1:8, for a while and can confirm (at least for this weapon) that H335 does NOT perform well with either 69gr or 77gr bullets. On the other hand H335 is fantastic with Hornady 55gr VMAX,
I have had much better success with Varget. You can anticipate compressed loads but the reloading manuals all predict this and I have not seen any pressure signs. Also I use the 10 round Magpul polymer magazines and they allow a slightly over length round to still function.
Metal God,
Yes, The last number is average group size at 100 yards for 5 round groups.
Les Baer makes a very accurate rifle and mine lives up to and exceeds the 1/2 inch at 100 yards guarantee. It is the most expensive rifle that I ever bought at $2249. I don't regret paying that much for it but it has put a crimp in my gun-buying budget for a while. It has a Bushnell 6500 Elite 4.5-30x50mm scope on it so the aim small shoot small concept seems to work. With that scope, you can easily see the bullet holes at 200 yards at full power even with my eyes. I continue to be amazed at how well the rifle shoots.
The factory test target initialed by Les Baer has two 5 round groups at 100 yards (from a test fixture) of 0.150 and 0.050 shot with Federal Premium Gold Medal Match 77 grain ammo with SMK bullets. I got to look at the target before chose it and I knew it was a really good shooter.
It shoots everything from 52 grain to 77 grain bullets but seems to do best with 69 to 77 grainers.
All my groups were shot with a Sinclair rest and a Protektor rear bag.
The 5 round hand load groups average 0.436 for all the 5 round groups I have ever shot. The top 25 hand loads average 0.290 so not all the groups were as tight as the TMKs. The TMKs (both 69 and 77 grains) are either at or near the top of the list. The best load average overall is a 77 TMK at 0.231.
You should see the three round hand load groups it shoots when I am trying different loads. They average 0.295 for all the 3 round groups I have ever shot with it. Top 10 hand loads average 0.187. That is better than my CZ 527 Varmint bolt action that averages 0.236. I never would have believed that a semi-auto could outshoot a bolt action but the Les Baer does, even if it cost over 3 times as much.
The magazine that came with the Super Varmint was a Magpul that will shoot loads up to 2.270 inches OAL. I adapted a Brownell's mag with a Brownell's single shot adapter for the longer OAL rounds tested.
Yes, The last number is average group size at 100 yards for 5 round groups.
Les Baer makes a very accurate rifle and mine lives up to and exceeds the 1/2 inch at 100 yards guarantee. It is the most expensive rifle that I ever bought at $2249. I don't regret paying that much for it but it has put a crimp in my gun-buying budget for a while. It has a Bushnell 6500 Elite 4.5-30x50mm scope on it so the aim small shoot small concept seems to work. With that scope, you can easily see the bullet holes at 200 yards at full power even with my eyes. I continue to be amazed at how well the rifle shoots.
The factory test target initialed by Les Baer has two 5 round groups at 100 yards (from a test fixture) of 0.150 and 0.050 shot with Federal Premium Gold Medal Match 77 grain ammo with SMK bullets. I got to look at the target before chose it and I knew it was a really good shooter.
It shoots everything from 52 grain to 77 grain bullets but seems to do best with 69 to 77 grainers.
All my groups were shot with a Sinclair rest and a Protektor rear bag.
The 5 round hand load groups average 0.436 for all the 5 round groups I have ever shot. The top 25 hand loads average 0.290 so not all the groups were as tight as the TMKs. The TMKs (both 69 and 77 grains) are either at or near the top of the list. The best load average overall is a 77 TMK at 0.231.
You should see the three round hand load groups it shoots when I am trying different loads. They average 0.295 for all the 3 round groups I have ever shot with it. Top 10 hand loads average 0.187. That is better than my CZ 527 Varmint bolt action that averages 0.236. I never would have believed that a semi-auto could outshoot a bolt action but the Les Baer does, even if it cost over 3 times as much.
The magazine that came with the Super Varmint was a Magpul that will shoot loads up to 2.270 inches OAL. I adapted a Brownell's mag with a Brownell's single shot adapter for the longer OAL rounds tested.
Last edited:
DarthNul and Metal God,
Not all loads work out as well as the best loads - pretty obvious when the overall average is 0.431 and the good loads are in under 0.3.
My worst 5 round load average was 0.886 with N140 powder and 77 SMK bullets at 2812 fps (a pretty fast load at the top of the load table).
But it may have been me more than the load or the rifle because the next load that was 0.1 grains hotter averaged 0.385.
I will admit it was probably the shooter more than the rifle or the load.
We all have days like that even under the best of conditions.
I'll probably have to try that one again just to confirm that it was me not the load.
Not all loads work out as well as the best loads - pretty obvious when the overall average is 0.431 and the good loads are in under 0.3.
My worst 5 round load average was 0.886 with N140 powder and 77 SMK bullets at 2812 fps (a pretty fast load at the top of the load table).
But it may have been me more than the load or the rifle because the next load that was 0.1 grains hotter averaged 0.385.
I will admit it was probably the shooter more than the rifle or the load.
We all have days like that even under the best of conditions.
I'll probably have to try that one again just to confirm that it was me not the load.
I measured the 77 TMKs at 1.068 and the SMKs at 0.999.
The 69 TMKs measured 0.995 and the SMKs measured 0.898.
DarthNul,
The longer TMK also has the ogive set back just a bit further than the SMK. Seating the TMKs to fit the magazine didn't show any signs of overpressure on the cases after firing.
Even with a chamber that measures 1.800 exactly, seating the TMK bullet out at 2.298, the ogive isn't close to touching the rifling. The TMK shape is that pointy so a lot of the bullet point is sitting out past the rifling.
The 69 TMKs measured 0.995 and the SMKs measured 0.898.
DarthNul,
The longer TMK also has the ogive set back just a bit further than the SMK. Seating the TMKs to fit the magazine didn't show any signs of overpressure on the cases after firing.
Even with a chamber that measures 1.800 exactly, seating the TMK bullet out at 2.298, the ogive isn't close to touching the rifling. The TMK shape is that pointy so a lot of the bullet point is sitting out past the rifling.