Any reason a beginner would shoot .357 better than .38?

C

Complete Neophyte

Inactive
I just got back from my first range trip with the new 686. All went well as far as the gun is concerned - felt comfy and performed flawlessly through about 100 rds or so as you would expect.

The shooter did of course less well than the gun given I'm a first timer. I was using the targets with the five separate scoring rings - a larger one in the middle. At 21' - as far back as the instructor wanted me to go - I was getting maybe 80% of the shots in the aimed-for ring but few bullseyes indeed and no great shakes for grouping. Not a huge disappointment for a first time shooter but certainly not going to get any target shooters scared for their trophies just yet! :rolleyes:

I did notice two things tho - one that makes sense to me as a beginner and one that doesn't. First up is that DAO shooting is a lot harder than it looks! Boy did my shots improve when I started cocking the hammer first! :eek:

The one I can't explain though is the title question - I was MUCH better - normally one red bullseye and four of the other five in the first ring on one of the smaller corner targets - using Black Hills .357 125gr JHP than using Winchester White Box 130gr FMJ .38spl rounds, where I shot mostly in and yep also out of the outer rings. Is there such a huge difference in the ammo? You'd think given the considerably greater recoil with the mags that a beginner like me would shoot worse with them not better.

Other first timer thoughts

Recoil is less of a worry than I expected. My bulk and strength may help here or may not - dunno, but I think of all the problems I have shooting accurately - and they are legion - flinching is one I don't have yet.

I tend to shoot down a bit and right a bit. I am VERY left eyed and right handed. Does this make sense that I would do this because of that? Maybe jerking the trigger a bit for the low shots? Should I try to compensate with the sights or wait until I can shoot better groups before I mess with the sight settings? I used as close as I could get to an isoceles stance - which is also a bit harder to get dead on right than it seemed when I'd never tried! Would a Weaver help by allowing the right hand to align a bit closer with the left eye?

Thanks again. Lot of fun. I was also shooting a Glock 19 quite a bit and a Walther P99 on the autoloader side - the Glock fit my hand very well and shot OK but obviously not as accurate as the SW. I also used the instructor's 6" Taurus Tracker .357. Didn't like that at all - seemed rough and gritty trigger feel and the grip was not comfy. Can't say whether that's because the gun is that way or just because I personally didn't like the feel but hey it was worth trying other firearms just to see what's out there.

Of course the main realization - which was not a surprise - is that I have lots to learn! Back again tomorrow to see if I get any better!
 
The recoil of the .357 may give you more time between shots.

Were you engaging in rapid fire, or waiting between the shots?

Geoff
Who has been around a while. :cool:
 
Two thoughts on this. Ammunition and ammunition. The 357 Magnum ammunition is better quality and faster. The 38 Special was lesser quality and the sights were not rgulated for it. POA/POI will be different for 38 Special to 357 Magnum, brands and gr weight of the cartridges. Try buying the same brand, type, gr weight and style of ammunition next time. I like 158 gr myself. Try Federal brand or other high quality ammunition.
 
You will get plenty of good advice here. I have only one comment to make,and that is ' Don't ever cock the gun' - use it DA only (unless you intend to become a 'booth shooter' of course.)
 
I would suspect your s&w doesn't like the brand of 38's you were using.This really sticks out on a rifle at 100 yds.If you are worried about the accuracy, find a brand it Likes and stick to it.D/a is great if you can touch your target with the muzzle of the gun.I don't believe for one minute that d/a would be more accurate at distance than s/a.I've owned a pickup load of handguns and haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.
 
Thanks again guys

While I understand the need for DA practice should defensive use be necessary I should probably get vaguely competent with SA first!

Good stuff on the ammo. Is the general consensus that the Winchester white box is a bit subpar or is this just a possible mismatch for the specific weapon? The 9mm version was what I was using in the Glock and it seemed to work pretty well.

And let me confirm what I think one poster implied but I may have misconstrued: If I bought the same brand and grain weight of .38 and .357 would they behave more or less alike - as in be similar to each other in POI/POA?

Only other .38 ammo I have is a box of Remington but it's still 130gr FMJ.

Is Black Hills a good brand? Their .357 worked well for me so my next logical step would be just to buy their .38 stuff too but bear in mind "working well for me" is based on limited experience and knowledge so if they are generally considered to be inferior I will trust the accumulated wisdom of experience.
 
Accuracy is accomplished by a combo of many things,one being consistancy, a 38 is way off from a 357 to begin with;so if the velocity,bullet weight,shape ,powder charge ,brand of primer etc.. is different more than likely where the bullet strikes the target will be different, hense the 38's will strike different than the 357's.If you are shooting targets I would forget the 357's and get some low vel 38's in 148 gr wad cutters or 158 swc.A low vel. 38 is much more pleseant to shoot.I would save the 357 125 hps for more serious stuff.
 
Complete Neophyte,

First, good range report and good questions!

Ammo info
Your 686 will likely shoot more accurately from the factory with .357 Magnum ammunition. In some guns it may not be noticibly different, but in other the difference will be significant. It all depends on the gun. Try good quality .357 Magnum ammo in 125gr and 158gr bullet weights using JHP or JSP types. You might want to try different brands over time too. Your gun will likely shoot better with one weight over another.

If that isn't enough... :rolleyes: Your gun may be most accurate with Brand-X .357 125gr JHPs AND Brand-Y 158gr JHPs. As an example, my 2.5" M66 is more accurate with Winchester Super-X 125gr Silvertip JHPs than the Remington 125gr JHPs. However, for a 158gr JHP the gun favors Federal ammo!

Black Hills is generally excellent ammo.

And if all the above isn't enough to think about...

.38 vs .357 Ammo
You'll find that if you can hit bullseyes with .357 Magnum rounds in a particular bullet weight, switching to the same weight in .38 Specials will very likely shoot to a different point of aim. For example, in my 2" M649 snubbie, I can shoot Winchester-USA (white box) .357 110gr JHPs and cut the 10 ring apart at 10 yards. Switch to WW-USA .38 Special 110gr JHPs and point of impact moves to the 8-ring at 8 o'clock. Using a +P .38 special improves things by moving POI to the 9-ring at (oddly enough) 3 o'clock. This was done from a bench to help improve the accuracy too. In short: .38 specials will have a different POI than .357's. Your gun will make it obvious to you. :D


Ammo - Generic vs. Premium
You get what you pay for is often true with ammo. Generic brands, like the "White box" Winchester ammo (Winchester-USA), Reminton's UMC and Federal's American Eagle exist for a reason -- to give shooters basic practice ammo at the range and/or less expensive hunting/defense rounds.

The premium lines like Winchester Super-X, Federal Premium and Match ammo are held to higher tolerances during manufacture. It's usually more carefully inspected and (supposedly) higher precision devices are used to load powder and bullets. These are more expensive but are worth it for precision shooting in matches or hunting. For defensive uses, you have to decide whether the improvement in accuracy shown in your gun is worth the extra money.


Shooting Tips
If you are shooting low & right as a right handed shooter, you're probably tightening your grip just as you fire. Remember you should hold the gun firmly, but not like you're trying to squeeze the juice out of the grips! :D

Right-eye/left-eye. You can try either holding the gun further left (feels awkward to me) or tipping your head over. In my experience, people who are "left eyed" sometimes shoot to the right until they learn to get the rear sight and left eye aligned properly.

Sight Settings
Always wait until you get consistent groups from your gun before trying to adjust the sights. Concentrate on your grip, trigger squeeze, sight alignment and breathing before mucking with the sights. Once you can shoot a fist-sized group at 15 yards or further, then you can think of adjusting the sights.

Obviously, you need to determine which brand & weight of ammo gives you the most consistent groups. Note that I didn't say shoots to where you're aiming! If WW-USA shoots where you're aiming but the groups are 6" and Federal Premium shoots at 6 o'clock into a 2" group, go with the Federal and then adjust the sights. It's best to use a bench with blocks/sandbags to support the gun when trying to adjust sights. My technique is to use the bench and adjust the sights a little at a time then fire 3 shots to determine the new POI. Make one adjustment at a time (vertical OR horizontal but not both). E.g. raise the point of impact to be correct, then move horizontally to center the POI.

Other tidbits & ramblings:
Shooting D/A vs S/A -- save S/A shooting for hunting or precision range shooting. In a defensive scenario it's strictly D/A all the way. S/A shooting is ideal for those scenarios when you have plenty of time to take your shot.

In D/A shooting with a S&W try this with an unloaded revolver... Squeeze the trigger to the rear until the tip of your finger contacts the rear of the triggerguard. Pause...

You have now done the "hard work" of rotating the cylinder and it should be locked in it's rotation (check with your off hand by trying to rotate the cylinder. If you hear a small *click* the trigger needs to come to the rear a tad more next time). Now that you've rotated the cylinder and the hammer is about 5/8ths through it's motion, align the sights and squeeeeeeeze.

This will do 2 things. First, it will build confidence in D/A shooting and give you better accuracy. Secondly it will build up muscle control in your finger so that when you perform full-stroke D/A shooting you'll be more accurate. In defensive situations you squeeze the trigger straight through without any pause! The 2-stage trigger technique is a target-shooting technique only! Note that gun makers do not endorse this technique because you may "overshoot" your intended stopping point and discharge the weapon.

When you want to polish your defensive skills, use a smooth, firm pressure on the trigger from start to finish with no pause. Practice 2-shot strings, D/A, concentrating on accuracy until you can do it rapidly into a 3"-4" circle at 10 yards.

Print out the attached file and take it to the range with you. You'll find it very helpful.
 

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One thing I was taught was when shooting DA (if shooting right handed) slightly give forward pressure(push) with your right hand and rearward pressure(pull) with you left hand during two handed shooting. It helps your shot to shot follow-up time.

Great post, BillCA. I think you about covered it.
 
Squeeze the trigger to the rear until the tip of your finger contacts the rear of the triggerguard.
Click to expand...
Different strokes for different folks, but to me you are using to much finger on the trigger which could cause you to pull the handgun off target. Try building hand strength and use the pad of the finger on the trigger.
 
Yes great stuff all - and Bill especially!

I just came back from 2nd range trip. Funnily enough I am getting to be merely bad rather than downright comical with the Glock but the SW is still something I have to master even slightly. There seemed to be less of a difference between .38 and .357 today but everything I shot was wide right by several inches. I paid very close attention to stance and grip - even paid for an hour's instruction to get it right - but only thing I could do to bring it in was shoot to the left - or to be more precise what I THOUGHT was the left!

I'll keep working on it but early indications - premature though they may be - show me being a damn sight better shot with a semiauto than a revolver, which is a bit counterintuitive but hey whatever works I guess.
 
I finally found one of your posts here on TFL!

I have worked at mastering the DA on my revolvers. It takes time. I have always been more consistently accurate with my Browning Hi Power and SIG P228, than with my revolvers shooting DA.

SA is another story. I found myself very accurate shooting the 686 SA (and like you moreso with .357). However, probably 99% of my range time with revolvers is DA to master the technique. The SA pull on my Ruger SP101 is so light, there is nothing to it. I am still working on precision accuracy shooting it DA.

You are getting good advice here, and presumably good instruction at the range. Now it just takes time and practice.
 
I just shot a 686 for the first time this weekend as well. I was far more accurate shooting DA than SA, and I think it's because in DA, I had to slowly and smoothly pull the trigger, concentrating more on what I was doing. Shooting SA, I had a tendency to shoot quickly, before I was properly sighted.
Thread about my first time: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1485548
 
Hi Doug!

Jeez what gave me away Doug? You'd think there would be other new posters from Minnesota with verbose convoluted writing styles and 686s!

I thought I'd throw you for a loop with the Glock talk. I took what I suspect is an unusal first step into shooting by buying two new guns of different types and seeing which one works out for me. The Glock was bought after I last emailed you IIRC. I had originally intended to buy a semiauto but decided a revolver's simplicity and ease of use and maintenance would be better. Then I thought I might as well just try both after all hence the G19.

Actually Doug you may recall about 6 months ago on PT someone - I think it was Fran but might have been Bill R - posted a pic and a glowing review of a Ruger P95 which caused some consternation on the board. Believe it or not that was what started me thinking I might try to take up pistol shooting - so you probably witnessed the impetus that got me into this damn mess! Just what I needed - another expensive collecting hobby! As it turned out I didn't like the ergonomics of the p95 at all but hey.

For the other TFLers reading this I apologize for the probably confusing and definitely irrelevant aside. Doug and I are both frequent posters on another hobby board for fountain pen collectors so are pretty well acquainted at least in cyberspace terms. Occasionally people will post pictures of pens with guns as backdrops to show some aesthetic link or shared era. This causes a bit of a stir as many of the pen collectors on the board are not fond of firearms at all. Sorry for the interruption and normal service will resume momentarily :rolleyes:
 
The Glock did throw me at first. It is fun to have both to shoot, although lately for me the revolver side has been more enjoyable. For my son, too. He loves the little SP101.

I think I mentioned in an email that I had to sell my 1997 686-4 to finance something else. Lately I have been seriously considering buying it back (the buyer said he would sell it back if I ever wanted it again). My father-in-law has a 1976 4" Ruger Police Service Six that I enjoy shooting. I thought I had him talked in to selling it to me and buying a pistol, but he changed his mind. He did say he wouldn't sell it to anyone else without checking with me first. Shooting these revolvers is great fun!

You are right about another expensive collecting hobby, but as with my fountain pens, I only buy guns that will be used regularly. I really don't have the disposable income to become a collector in either hobby, let alone both! I'm glad you are enjoying your foray into shooting. Oh, by the way, I happen to know there are at least a handful of 1911 shooters (probably more) on PT.
 
Well I'm not ready to give up on the Smith just yet but hey you know my habits well enough to know that I am not immune to horsetrading when I'm not using something as much as I should. Like you I never own something just to own it - every one of my pens is used regularly or sold. Guns will be held to the same standard. If I do end up going the semiauto route exclusively I'll see if you are still in need of a 686. I'm going to give it a bit of time though as, unlike pens, I don't really know what I like/don't like yet.

While I am not a poor man, I don't have the bankroll to gather as many guns as I have pens by a long shot. If I get hooked I'd maybe pick up a snubbie revolver and perhaps a 1911 .45 on the autoloader side (aside for Doug's benefit - for the same reason that I have a Namiki VP and a Parker 51 respectively!) Not only are they generally slightly more expensive (although closer than many TFL posters would probably guess and as you well know!) but because I think of them differently. I have no interest in gun aesthetics for example (obviously - I own a Glock :D ) only their functional and mechanical quality. Hence I would be less compelled to buy many different versions of firearm.

Interesting analogy though - bears some thought. BTW Doug I sold the Stipula WES LEs to fund this little spree!
 
Good decision to hold on to the 686. As you say, you need more time with it before making any decision. Some people do gravitate more toward revolver or more toward pistol, but it takes time at the range to make that assessment.

The 1911 bug has been biting here lately, but I am trying to resist the temptation. I do think there is some correlation in the brain between revolvers/1911s and vintage fountain pens. Something about the old standards, the tried and true, and in some instances the plain and reliable versus the latest, greatest eye candy (although there certainly is a lot of eye candy in the 1911 realm!).

Nice sale you made to fund the handguns! My first handgun (a SIG P239 purchased in April 2003) was bought with pen money, including some I got from you for a MB 142.

Just to get us back on point, I shoot far more .38 and .38+P than I do .357 to keep the cost down while I am learning DA trigger control. But I do shoot a few cylinders of .357 each range session to keep myself acquainted with the different feel and point of impact of the .357 round.
 
Yes to get back on topic a followup question

I do the same - mostly .38s but some .357s. One experienced shooter recommended I load both in the cylinder at the same time - say 2 .357s out of the 6 - and then spin it so I don't know which is which. I can see why that would help in training me not to anticipate the recoil, but wouldn't that make my already lamentable accuracy even worse?
 
My 686's have bigger groups than my other revo's!

Just shot at the range the other day, and I was just burning up ammo in order to get it ready for reloading (vicious cycle, I know). I had my 6 1/2" 629 classic, and my P/R 57. Shooting ten yards, and all of my .44 mag shots are pretty much in the same hole. Off hand 5 shot groups no bigger than 1" center to center. The 57 was a little larger, (still trying to find it a load it really likes) with groups around 1 1/2-2". My 686's 4 and 6" bbls, were around 2-3" groups. I feel like I was shooting with a similar rhythm for all calibers. Has anyone experienced this before? I'm thinking that like the original question posed, I'm shooting a stronger load and maybe somehow I'm thinking things through a little more with the stouter loads. It's strange, though, that my .44 mag would be my most accurate revolver in my collection. I should add that all of my revos are used guns, and maybe the 686's may have been shot the most compared to the 57 and 629.
 
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