Allen_Raiford
New member
Or is the "series 70" system pretty safe?
Any real safety advantage gained with "series 80" system?
- Thread starter Allen_Raiford
- Start date
VictorLouis
New member
I have been wrestling with this myself for a while now. The 80 system protects against two highly unlikely scenarios:
1) Total failure of hammer/sear/safety relationship.
2) Inertial discharge in the event the gun is dropped.
The first is highly unlikely. The hammer cannot fall while held back by the sear. The sear cannot move while locked by the safety. And a properly fitted safety will not "work loose". If the sear notch on the hammer should shear, the sear will engage and trap the hammer via the half-cock notch (or the "shelf"). If the sear should break, the whole thing will be bound up solidly, preventing hammer fall.
The second concern is a remote possibility. Gov't. tests from long ago showed that the pistol must be dropped about two stories, and impact directly on the muzzle, or the grip tang of the frame. That could provide the inertial force necessary for the pin to travel forward enough to hit the primer. We all know the toast lands butter side down, but, the chance of this happening just as described is nearly non-existent. The FBI's own protocol for the HRT 1911 showed that it was unnecessary.
Last caveat: Be sure your pistol's springs are always "fresh", and strong enough for the task. Particularly, that of the firing pin.
[This message has been edited by VictorLouis (edited April 07, 2000).]
1) Total failure of hammer/sear/safety relationship.
2) Inertial discharge in the event the gun is dropped.
The first is highly unlikely. The hammer cannot fall while held back by the sear. The sear cannot move while locked by the safety. And a properly fitted safety will not "work loose". If the sear notch on the hammer should shear, the sear will engage and trap the hammer via the half-cock notch (or the "shelf"). If the sear should break, the whole thing will be bound up solidly, preventing hammer fall.
The second concern is a remote possibility. Gov't. tests from long ago showed that the pistol must be dropped about two stories, and impact directly on the muzzle, or the grip tang of the frame. That could provide the inertial force necessary for the pin to travel forward enough to hit the primer. We all know the toast lands butter side down, but, the chance of this happening just as described is nearly non-existent. The FBI's own protocol for the HRT 1911 showed that it was unnecessary.
Last caveat: Be sure your pistol's springs are always "fresh", and strong enough for the task. Particularly, that of the firing pin.
[This message has been edited by VictorLouis (edited April 07, 2000).]
killer45auto
New member
victor pretty much summed it up,I have pistols with both types of safeties in them and have no real preferance other than the series 70 seems to have a lot crisper trigger pull.
killer45auto
killer45auto
I suppose it does add a margin of safety if the hammer slips off the sear. While mechanical safetys are a poor substitute for proper gun handling, lawyers would have a field day if the firing pin block was not incorporated in the design.
A product may be considered as "dangerously defective" if it was manufactured without a safety feature which could have been included. While this is a judgment call for the jury, some jurors are easily misled by the attorneys and their experts (so, if you get called for jury duty in a firearms related litigation, serve!). In a sense, it also penalizes a manufacturer if said manufacturer improves a design since the improvement shows that the new safety feature could have been incorporated during the initial production (even more reason to serve on juries).
In short, Colt had little choice but to include it. Having been a large firm, it stood to lose more than a smaller firm with little investment capital. But, that's a different story.
A product may be considered as "dangerously defective" if it was manufactured without a safety feature which could have been included. While this is a judgment call for the jury, some jurors are easily misled by the attorneys and their experts (so, if you get called for jury duty in a firearms related litigation, serve!). In a sense, it also penalizes a manufacturer if said manufacturer improves a design since the improvement shows that the new safety feature could have been incorporated during the initial production (even more reason to serve on juries).
In short, Colt had little choice but to include it. Having been a large firm, it stood to lose more than a smaller firm with little investment capital. But, that's a different story.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Since I've yet to have or be around an "event" of the type the Series 80 "protects" against, all I can say is that it violates the KISS principle.
FWIW, Art
FWIW, Art
1911Heaven
New member
JMB got it right the 2nd time in this case;actually he first submitted the 1911 with grip safety only--Army requested he add the thumb safety--the result, handled and holstered by knowledgeable shootists,is perfectly safe without the '80 parts.Regards.
The Series 80 firing pin block is designed primarily to prevent firing if the pistol is dropped on the muzzle. It does not require a two-story drop, only about 6 ft. onto a hard surface to fire a chambered round.
The complete failure of the sear and/or both hammer notches is pretty remote even with a heavy blow on the hammer; further, the gun can't fire with the safety on even if that did happen.
True that the trigger pull is not as good on the Series 80, but I do not recommend removing the safety; there is just too much risk for too small gain.
Jim
The complete failure of the sear and/or both hammer notches is pretty remote even with a heavy blow on the hammer; further, the gun can't fire with the safety on even if that did happen.
True that the trigger pull is not as good on the Series 80, but I do not recommend removing the safety; there is just too much risk for too small gain.
Jim
From what I have been told by knowledgeable sources the Colt 1911 will fire one round straight down if dropped straight down onto the muzzle from a height of 4 feet. with the thumb safety engaged the slide can not move to the rear. Plus the pistol wouldn't have anything to recoil against so the pistol could not reload itself. The Series 70 and back Colts are the best. Most 1911 lovers bitched to high heaven when the firing pin lock was put into the Series 80. Most claimed and rightfully so that they ruined the gun. For a long time I would not carry a Series 80 on duty as a LEO due to failures of the firing pin to unlock. We removed them from the slide, but I no longer go to those extremes since I usually carry a Glock 21 or a Kimber on duty.
...7th
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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
...7th
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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Hello all. Using Jeff Cooper's words, "an ingenious solution to a nonexistant problem."
Best to all.
Best to all.
VictorLouis
New member
7th: Weren't you the member that was going to post the results of some recent gov't "safety trials"? The intitial input showed the Kimber(?) failed in some manner?
Does anyone know how the FBI's drop test was performed. Was the pistol placed in some kind of jig, to ensure a direct, downward muzzle impact? Four feet, is quite different than 20', wouldn't you say?
Does anyone know how the FBI's drop test was performed. Was the pistol placed in some kind of jig, to ensure a direct, downward muzzle impact? Four feet, is quite different than 20', wouldn't you say?
John Lawson
New member
The 1911 pistol will not fire if dropped on the muzzle from 4 feet. I participated in an experiment to try to make one fire (primed case only) and it would not. With the factory firing pin spring it would fire once in a while from a height of 35 feet, but it only hit muzzle on three times out of 1,000 drops. Mostly, it hits flat on a side. We dropped from many different heights with the same results.
The Series 80 system was incorporated in the 1911 to prevent unintentional firing by those who carry a loaded chamber with the hammer all the way down. Especially if somebody replaces the factory hammer spring and the firing pin spring with a bad combination, it is possible for the pistol to fire if the hammer is cocked almost to the half-cock notch of the Series 70 and before, and let to slip. This happened with the "commander" style hammer installed.
Although Mr. Browning designed this pistol to be carried loaded and hammer down on a live round (His pistol did not have a thumb safety) it was re-designed by Colt engineers and the Army Ordnance Corps to the modern configuration. It was a common practice by Cavalry to cock a pistol by stroking the hammer against their riding pants. Obviously, Mr. Browning felt this practice was well enough known to make a thumb safety redundant. His original pistol is called the madel of 1905, cal..45 acp.
The Series 80 system was incorporated in the 1911 to prevent unintentional firing by those who carry a loaded chamber with the hammer all the way down. Especially if somebody replaces the factory hammer spring and the firing pin spring with a bad combination, it is possible for the pistol to fire if the hammer is cocked almost to the half-cock notch of the Series 70 and before, and let to slip. This happened with the "commander" style hammer installed.
Although Mr. Browning designed this pistol to be carried loaded and hammer down on a live round (His pistol did not have a thumb safety) it was re-designed by Colt engineers and the Army Ordnance Corps to the modern configuration. It was a common practice by Cavalry to cock a pistol by stroking the hammer against their riding pants. Obviously, Mr. Browning felt this practice was well enough known to make a thumb safety redundant. His original pistol is called the madel of 1905, cal..45 acp.