Any other good countries to go to?

J

Jack 99

New member
OK International travellers, I think America is headed down the turlet, as Archie Bunker would say. We've lost any concept of limited government (do you hear ANY of the front runners for Prez talking about cutting gubmint spending?) and I don't know if we can get it back. I used to believe that it was Pinko infiltration of gubmint and institutions that was undermining the country. That certainly didn't help, but "we the people" (collectively) either don't care or we actually like being serfs (by the way, serfs in Medieval Europe gave about 25% of what they produced to the land owner. I'd settle for that deal, how about you?).

Now we have Clinton about to be declared above the law (you don't think his cronies in Arkansas are going to disbar him, do you?) and that makes ME and YOU peasants in a very real and serious way. Think about it.

Well, I can't stand to be a peasant and I want off this crazy ride. There's about 1/8 of the population (maybe not even that much) that even gives damn a about the current situation. Lots will talk about Revolution and restoring the Constitution, but they fail to realize they've already been trumped. You're not going to see blue helmets on main street and nobody is going to kick in your door for Grandpa's shotgun. It's actually more insidious than that. You'll just grit your teeth and register any new gun you want to buy and in 30 years your grandkids will think nothing of going to the gubmint approved range to shoot thier .22 where it will be stored for thier own good. You'll pay a UN "environmental tax" on your new car (won't be called that, but it will show up in the sticker price, sure as sh%&) and you'll feel pretty good about it all because you can still sound off on the internet. BFD.

The kicker is that Gore is probably going to win the next election. The "entitled class" and "soon-to-be-entitled class" (boomers) are just about the majority of voters now and they know that Dems are much more favorable to the cause of entitlement spending. Add to that the fact that Gore will probably get at least partial credit for the economy and the reality of President Gore is actually at least a 50-50 shot, probably better. I'm willing to bet that when most of the Boomers get into that voting booth, nobody will mind the little "problems" of Gore being associated with Clinton so long as they get a prescription drug entitlement by the time they qualify for a Social Security check. Free dope is a really easy sell. (no offense intended to Boomers who truly care about Liberty and Truth)

This really didn't start out to as a rant (got sort of carried away) I just wanted to know if anyone knows of a country where there's some hope of living even moderately free.

Anyone?

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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper

"The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty - and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies." -- H.L. Mencken, February 12, 1923, Baltimore Evening Sun

"If God had not wanted them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep." -- Bad guy from the Magnificent Seven.
 
Privately funded teraforming colony on Mars..... Nah, they'd still find a way to infringe. Guess there's nowhere to run.
 
Really good points. It is insidious and gradual.
But there is no other country to bail to. Americans are universally hated and no other countries will grant you the right to firearms ownership.
I have no answers for you. I worry about the future of the country every day. I fear what my kids my have in store for them.
I'll tell you who I blame though. Good old Average Man Joe, who is ignorant, likes being ignorant and couldn't tell the Constitution from a VCR instruction sheet.
Average Man Joe who doesn't know what a Socialist is and thinks our military probably is too big.
Average Man Joe who agrees people don't need all those deadly guns that kill everybody.
Americans are getting exactly what they deserve. The rights and freedoms of cattle!!
 
Hey there, T-Rex!
But if you outfit that colony with FreeElectronLasers on the surrounding mountans and orbit a few, you could pull it off. Refuse to accept any UN onvoys or ambassadors and bust you ass to develope new technology.
 
Jack, honestly, the U.S. seems to be the proverbial least of many evils. Any good country to emigrate to is going to have very restrictive immigration laws - it just goes hand in hand - just try to emigrate to Austria for example with Mr. Hiedel (Heider?) in power.

Seems that the revolution MAY have to take place (I hope not). I feel that the first step is to see what happens in the Emerson case, and if it clearly wrongly decided (resulting in NO rights), then the first step of the revolution would be to summarily uhhhmmm, cause to cease to be active, the judges deciding that case, as traitors to the U.S. Constitution. Can't really speak any more about this on this forum, however.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited February 15, 2000).]
 
[flag-waving rant]
As bad as I'm sure a lot of people are going to say this country is, I thank the Lord that I was born here and not somewhere else. I feel blessed that I have the right to fight for my rights. Though the deck is definitely stacked against us, we're fighting and even winning on some fronts. The anti's attack is certainly insidious, but for now, I can still legally go out in my back yard and unload a 30 round clip if I want to. Full-Auto even, if I want to pay the government for the privilege.(Right?) Name another country where you can do that! Betcha the list is short.

So many people complain about natural-born rights being undermined by the government, but these rights, though universal, are commonly absent in so many other countries, that they aren't even considered basic human rights anymore. It's a sad state most of the world is in right now, but like it or not, we're in an enviable position. Just ask someone in Australia, Canada, England, etc. "Don't know what you've got, 'til it's gone."
[/flag-waving rant]

I love my country, but fear my government.


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RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jack 99:
OK International travellers, I think America is headed down the turlet, as Archie Bunker would say. Anyone?

[/quote]

The only other country with great gun laws was Viet Nam from 1958 to 1973 . Other than that we are the best in the world except for some third world country in Civil War or just plain chaos . I really believe that we could pick a state or group of states and make quite a stand . I have already chosen Arizona to move to . I have the land and can build at the drop of a hat . I think maybe only Texas is more tolerant of weapons . Many folks stay where they are when they retire because that's where the kids usually live . This is a personal choice . But!!! Any state is better than ANY other country . I am not aware of any surveys that indicate the present and forseeable future state of gun ownership but would be very interested in viewing one . As far as the Gov't making any laws to the contrary it would be a matter of states rights . It seems that the federal Gov't is trying to make it as hard to own a gun as it is to understand the fine print on the back of your credit card statement . I do not believe I would pick up a gun and fight my country in a man to man war . BUT!!! I will spend time , money AND cast my votes as if my life depends on it . Not to mention MOVE !!!



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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER
 
Jack -

Can't much disagree with you. But, to steal a line from Ken Hamblin, "Pick a Better Country." You can't. I've been to more countries than I can count off the top of my head, but as Dorothy would say, "There's noplace like home."

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
I have asked myself this question also. A couple of years ago, in his G&A column, Jeff Cooper remarked that the Czech Republic and Bolivia have liberal gun laws. I have made some effort to confirm this claim but have not gotten far since my research has been limited to occasional internet searches.
Beyond the issue of gun laws, there are immigration laws to consider. Were one to emigrate to a foreign country, under what circumstances would it be permitted? Most countries in the world have strict laws regarding who gets in. Moreover, who would be permitted to bring firearms as landed immigrants? The answer is probably no one.
Yet, let us say that a person sells everything, packs a bag, and hops a 747. Once there, what are the rules? If one is financially independent, almost any country would be happy to accept him or her, so the visa or permit issues could be resolved quickly.

If being rich is not an option, the next best situation is a profession or job skill that is in demand by the country in question. Some professions, such as medicine, engineering and other technical trades are probably on a list that the government of said country would be happy to admit as legal aliens. If one is not in these groups, it is probably SOL.

Next, there is the language issue. How is the Czech or Spanish? I doubt if anyone will have patience with the Americano who cannot or will not speak the lingo. Finally, there is the issue of homesickness. Becoming an expatriate is a daunting task. Loneliness, isolation, learning a new language and customs, separation from family and friends, and, finally, walking into the U.S. consulate or embassy one day and renouncing American citizenship are tough roads to take. Any American who does this stuff will be thoroughly despised back home.

While many, many people still come to the U.S. each year to be a part of the American dream, few, maybe only a couple of hundred, choose to leave the U.S. for good. Those that do are usually doing it for family reasons (besides a few rich tax exiles). To become an expatriate through political will or disgust is something few Americans understand or appreciate.

How much does it mean to you to privately own your favorite firearm? Are you ready to choose your gun or your country? That is one hell of a choice.

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It only takes one bullet to change your life.
 
Actually, I hear that Switzerland isn't too bad, aside from the fact that you CAN'T immigrate there; They won't let you. (I don't blame them, by the way; They're full up, and not manufacturing more land.)

And Israel is too endangered by it's neighbors to afford disarming it's population, and they WILL let you move there if you're Jewish. On the other hand, they're a socialist country kept afloat by foreign aid. That can't go on forever, in my opinion.

In my humble opinion, the situation isn't QUITE as dire as you paint it. Remember, it was only six years ago that we kicked the gun control movement's political butt on the national level. OK, it didn't gain us a lot beyond some breathing space, because of GOP betrayals, but it was a fair measure of our political clout. Another measure is these lawsuits which have us so vexed; Believe me, those suits were a real desperation move on the part of the anti-gun movement; They practically GUARANTEE that the Supreme court won't be able to keep ducking the Second amendment much longer, and our enemies have as much or more reason to fear what the Court might do as we do. If they thought they were winning, they would NOT have brought those suits!

So we're not beat, by a long shot. But we do have a little problem, in that our foes control the news media, and the schools.

Hm, did I say a "little" problem? When was that Mars colony supposed to be ready?

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Futo,

If it was just that easy, we'd be in a lot better shape right now. The game is rigged though and any "revolutionary" activities probably wouldn't have the kind of effect you're looking for. I also think its dangerous to post that kind of stuff publicly, but you're the one whose dance card at Club Fed will be filled up by guys whose last look at a woman was sometime during the Carter Administration, so knock yourself out.

To all,

I've already considered a lot of the issues you've mentioned but I just refuse to be a peasant in this country or any other. "President Gore" is a very real possibility and I don't know if I can live with that. Options are few and consequences dire, I know, but somewhere along the way, if you're still going to consider yourself a Man (or Woman, for that matter) you've got to draw a line and say "This is it. Do not cross!" Otherwise, you're just a bag of hot air.

Its getting really hard to define that line though when the attack is on all fronts and the opposition is actively redefining reality through mass media and culture (the meaning of the word "is" was used as a defense in court by the President of the United States and the mainstream media barely touched it. Not to mention all of the people that defended Clinton's actions). This would all be easy if some A-hole would just send troops around to kick in my door, but the steady drip drip erosion of our Liberties is maddening.

It also seems to be the general concensus that this is as good as it gets, politically speaking, on planet Earth anyway. Too depressing to think about. Maybe the aliens will come take me.
 
try belize, Im not sure of their gun laws, but for 35k to 50k in a belize bank, you can be issued a belize passport.......there is a caravan of people that leave from mexico and head down I believe they do this on a monthly basis.,....there are other places, but the question is money, and if that is the solution the amount of money in this country can open doors as well....fubsy.
 
In the short run, are YOU registered to vote? Do you have friends who are gun-owners? Have you made sure THEY are registered to vote? Have you made any plans to be a chauffeur, if necessary, to get them to the polling place? Or non-shooters, as well? If not, you might as well be a Gore-supporter.

And the above comments are addressed to everybody on this forum.

I don't know if the laws have changed since November, 1985, but in Costa Rica, I saw an ad in the Tico Times for a Ruger Blackhawk, .357, for $300 US. The eye-surgeon my buddy and I were visiting said, "You want a pistol? Go buy one."

The rice farmers love for hunters to come do something about those nasty old white-wing doves, which eat their crops. There are white tailed deer to hunt. You troll for sailfish as soon as you leave the Pacific shore; you only go 10 miles out if you want marlin.

If you have a permanent income of at least $1,000 a month, you can become a "pensione" and bring an entire household--including car--for an 11% entry tax. After three years, you can sell the car and bring in another one. Land titles are good, but a bit tricky, so one must be wary and use a good attorney. Pensiones are required to spend at least six months of the year in-country, although it need not be consecutive.

No army; more schoolteachers than police; 93% literacy rate; courtesy is a fetish; and it is customary to start each day with a shower. About 1/3 of the people speak some or even good English.

They have a high percentage of their land as national parks. Good freshwater fishing and a good bit of whitewater river-rafting and canoing.

It's worth a look. There are around 30,000 to 40,000 gringos living there. Round trip flights out of Houston and Miami.

I read articles about hunting and fishing in Argentina, although a poster here stated they are going ga-ga against handguns. Hmmm. Don't recall any posts from "El Chimango" for a while...

But first, vote.

:-), Art
 
What to do if the Bill of Rights is ever difinitively breeched, as it would be if the Second Amendment is ever effectively overturned, is a question that I think we are actually less and less in danger of ever having to make.
I think we decisively deafeated the anti's last June when we somehow managed to turn back their attack on the Constition with the vicious Lautenburg Gun Laws. They tried to use the Columbine Tragedy as their Reichstag Fire, but they failed. They threw everything they had at us and failed. Since then, their attacks grow weaker and weaker and we grow stronger.
I see it like the Battle of Gettysburg. Do you know that they actually fired General Meade, perhaps the Union's best general, because they thought he had let the Confederate Army get away? They did not at the time realize that the course of the war was now almost inevitalbe. Robert E. Lee, the opposing general, was about the only one who fully realized the awful truth. That is why he ordered the the last dich effort of Picket's Charge.
Yes, our enemy is still very dangerous, we could somehow blow the whole thing with our own folly and it sure isn't over yet. But I do believe that we now have the upperhand and that the the momentum will be on our side for a long time to come. The anti's just woke the American people up on the issue of the Bill of Rights and its palladium, the Second Amendment. The American people overwhelmingly want to pass it on to thier progeny.
We will know much better how things truly stand after next November's elections.
 
I am stunned!

Only a couple even touched upon the fact that this is OUR country & why the hell should we give it up or want to leave it?

There is nowhere else to go so free as where you live now (assuming USA) & why would you want to leave? If there is some "magic place," truly wonderful & full of bliss - I have found it here - in these United States.

Stay. Stand. Vote your conscience (even if it's wrong ;-) & we get to bitch about it tomorrow). Get up & get out, make your voice be heard and say NO!

Last couple of topics I've surfed ... I shake my head in disbelief at "us" sometimes.

I'll have to regroup tomorrow, gather some threads from some topics & start a new one ... perhaps on only "Why would we give it up?"

Are we so beaten down now that we would even consider this before we have even begun to fight for it?
 
Don't forget one last detail: for every immigrant who's here for welfare benefits there are ten who had to run once and might be uninclined to do so again. Those of you who have read Remarque's "Floatsam" might know what I am referring to. I am entirely unwilling to move again and, unlike some locals, actually know what life is like without the rights they take for granted.

That means I only need enough water and spare tubes to hold this last ditch :) Help is welcome.

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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
labgrade and others,

I hope you didn't misinterperet. I love this country and everything it used to stand for. But how do I say this so you'll understand....

The deck is stacked

The fix is in

The die is cast

The bed is made

Humpty Dumpty was pushed

There's something rotten in Denmark

The inmates are running the asylum

We're playing with loaded dice

"There is no political so-lu-tion,
to our troubled e-vo-lu-tion,
Have no faith in Con-sti-tu-tion." (borrowed from The Police)

Pandora's box is open and we'll never get it closed again.


There's probably a couple dozen other cliches I could list. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think entitlements ruined this country. Hard to blame anyone, when most people get to be 60 they vote for a Gore or someone similar because they've shucked out so much dough to the gubmint over the course of their life they just want some kind of return on their money. Socialism is its own self-fulfilling prophecy and I don't see anyone derailing this train short of the violent revolution gig, and that will be a pretty futile exercise for a number of reasons, IMHO.
 
Politics is dictated by social change.

The antis know this, and are hard at work, and achieving social change.

Gun owners on the other hand, are by and large content with talking a lot about how things were, or should be, or might be. They spend little time actually bringing about substantive change.

That makes you mad? Too bad. By most accounts there are over 60 million gun owners in America, of which only a little over 3 million are involved in pro gun organizations/politics. How many are not registered to vote? I don't know the numbers, but it wouldn't suprize me to learn that most antis are registered voters who actively contribute to their cause.

Solutions? Here's a couple: Register to vote if you are not already. Encourage all of your like-minded friends to do so as well. Join the NRA- it is our most powerful voice. Join another pro-gun organization. Insist that your gun owning friends do so as well- berate them as necessary until they do.

Erik
 
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