Answer this please, can this roll crimp?

Can't tell just from the photo but it probably can. To find out remove the seating stem from the die and look into the die mouth and if a shoulder can be seen some distance into the die, that is the roll crimping shoulder. If no shoulder, it is a taper crimp die only. A light crimp with a roll crimp die applies a taper crimp only. Carry out the roll crimp farther by bending the case mouth into the cannelure (if a jacketed bullet) or the crimping groove (if a lead bullet) and you have a roll crimp. But you should be able to definitely tell by the presence or absence of a shoulder within the die. I would guess that it is a roll crimp die. Since .44 lead bullets with a crimping groove are commonly used, it would be expected that the die would roll crimp.
 
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Usually, die sets for revolver cartridges have a roll crimp die - unless otherwise specified. I don't know absolutely positively for certain, but if I was a betting man, I'd say this set (Lee 90516) has a roll crimp die.

I load a lot of 44 Special (loaded a hundred 240 LSWC's last night, in fact). And I use all RCBS dies - except for the addition of a Lee FCD. Now the Lee FCD for 44 Mag/Spl is definitely a roll crimp die.

My load process is unique. For revolver cartridges (which is about 90% of what I load), I use a three die set up in my Dillon 550.

For lead or jacketed . . .
First Die: Seats (RCBS)
Second Die: Taper crimps (RCBS)
Third Die: Lee FCD - to add the final roll crimp.

For Plated . . .
First Die: Seats
Second Die: Taper crimps
Third Die: Lee FCD - with the crimp mechanism disengaged
 
Thanks will look into it soon.
I can't remember first time around, as I used a set of RCBS dies back then.
And darn can't remember having to open the case back up to insert bullet neither.
Wow I guess memory fading. LOL




Jeff
 
How about checking the videos on the basics of reloading before hand?
Just to bring your brain back up to speed.
There's plenty of them on youtube as well as the info in the stickies above.
Better safe than sorry.
Probably never heard that one before.
 
Mine does. But I'd not recommend the factory crimp die and just use the roll crimping feature of the seating die. The FCD caused me a bunch of trouble sizing down my carefully sized cast bullets and causing some leading...

Look here for a less expensive alternative to Bonanza; http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-carbide-or-steel-3-die-sets/44-specialmagnum-3-die-set-carbide

Mebbe reading a couple reloading manuals' "How To" sections will refresh your memory, or The ABCs of Reloading is a pretty good text to have for reference in your library...
 
Neither the Mag nor Special require a taper crimp. They headspace on the rim.
"Lee 44 Special Pistol 3-Die Set includes Carbide Full Length Sizing Die, Bullet Seating Die, Powder Thru Expanding Die, Universal Shell Holder, Powder Dipper and Instructions/Load Data.
Note: These dies can be used to reload 44 Magnum and 445 Super Mag."
http://leeprecision.com/3-die-set-44-spl-carbide.html
 
Neither the Mag nor Special require a taper crimp. They headspace on the rim.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I've always thought that it was the specific bullet profile that determines the crimp type - not what the headspace is based on.

I.E., most .44 mag and special bullets have either a crimp groove or a cannelure so the standard .44 dies come with a roll crimp. However, you can also shoot round-nosed plated bullets which have no cannelure. If you try to put a roll crimp on those, it will just crack the plating resulting in problems while shooting. For those, you need a taper crimp die.
 
Headspacing on the rim does not determine whether a bullet should be crimped or not, taper or roll crimped. The point was to determine if the OP's die will roll crimp and that can be found out visually by examining the inside of the seating die for a roll crimp shoulder.
 
Neither the Mag nor Special require a taper crimp.

It depends on the bullet being seated. Plated bullets should be taper crimped. I load a lot of these: http://www.xtremebullets.com/44-200-RNFP-p/xc44-200fp-b0500.htm And although they have a cannelure, I prefer to taper crimp them (because they're plated).

I have two taper crimp dies for 44 Mag/Spl - one is adjusted for Special; one for Magnum. So I can just quickly swap them out on the toolhead; rather than having to re-adjust one.
 
Even more good answers thanks.

I do reload but rifle no handgun since 1980, and that was the 44 and 357.

So yep been looking on the web at videos, but so many seem to be different then what I did back then.

Wish I could remember. LOL


Thanks again.


Jeff
 
If you try to put a roll crimp on those, it will just crack the plating resulting in problems while shooting. For those, you need a taper crimp die.


You can do a very light roll crimp on those without damaging the bullet. Revolver bullets with no crimp groove is kind of a new concept. Either way, these bullets are not likely to stay seated under real magnum recoil, but then soft lead with a thin plating does not make for a good choice for magnum bullet anyways.
 
Either way, these bullets are not likely to stay seated under real magnum recoil, but then soft lead with a thin plating does not make for a good choice for magnum bullet anyways.

Heh, yes. Well stated.

I agree. A very light roll crimp is okay with a plated bullet. But if you plan on loading/shooting a lot of them, I'd strongly recommend getting a taper crimp die for plated slugs.
 
Gunny12,

Let me refresh your memory a little.

Cartridge brass has thickness tolerances, and not all brands have the same thickness. In order to make one sizing die that will successfully resize all brands of brass means it must be made small enough to resize the thinnest brass adequately. For that reason, plus allowing for repeatedly resized brass to become more springy as it work hardens, sizing dies have to be made to resize average brass and thick brass too much. This makes it too narrow for the bullet, so sizing is followed by an expander to make the inside diameters correct for bullet seating.

A rifle cartridge with a bottleneck can have its expander inside the sizing die because the case is clear of the part of the die that resizes the neck when the expander starts acting on it. But if a case is designed with straight sides, like your .44 Special, that clearance won't exist when the case is inside the die. Even if the die uses a carbide sizing ring at its mouth that leave room above the ring for an expander, you would just iron that expansion back out again when you withdrew the case from the die. So expanding straight wall cases has to be done in a separate operation on a separate die after sizing. On the plus side, the separate expander die can be made hollow, so if you have primed the case on the downstroke after resizing, you can put the powder charge in the case right through the die.

The die set you are thinking of buying will have a roll crimp shoulder built into the seating die body. You adjust how much, if any, of that crimp you use when you set up the seating die. Many folks do not use the crimp in the seating die because it tends to shave a little metal off the bullet because it is still moving into the case as the crimp is formed. This leaves little shaved ring of bullet metal at the mouth of each case. Even commercial jacketed ammunition often has these. Folks who find this objectionable instead prefer to have a separate crimping die that is a 4th operation, or they set their seated bullets aside without crimping, then remove the seating stem from the seating die and use just the die body as a separate crimp die, so it crimps without pushing the bullet any deeper.

That latter method is extra adjusting, so many just get the separate crimping die. At that point you can choose between a taper crimp and a roll crimp. Roll crimps are commonly used in revolvers because they hold the bullet more firmly than a taper crimp does. Revolvers firing rimmed cartridges or rimless cartridges using moon or half moon clips have a special problem that auto pistols do not share. When the revolver fires, recoil pushes back on the cylinder which pushes back on the rims (or clips) of all the remaining cartridges in it. Inertia wants to make the bullets tend to stay where they are, and if the recoil is sharp enough, that inertia will pull the bullet out as the case goes backward. I think of it as the bullet being "pantsed" by the recoil. If a bullet comes out far enough to stick out of the cylinder, it will jam rotation of the cylinder. A roll crimp does the best job of preventing this.

On the other hand, if your loads are light target loads and the revolver is one with some heft, and not a snubby or other light weight carry gun, you may find it never develops recoil sharp enough to pants the rounds in the cylinder. In this instance you can get away with a taper crimp. I did this for many years firing .38 wadcutters and .357 cased wadcutter loads in my S&W K-frame target revolver and my Dan Wesson 15-2, respectively. The brass is then good for many more reloadings before the case mouths start to split. This is the main advantage of the taper crimp.

However, for my Charter Bulldog .44 firing full power .44 Specials I had to use a roll crimp. Today, my personal opinion is the Redding Profile Crimp die is the best choice for these. The advantage it has is it lets you apply a roll crimp harder than you can do with standard dies. This is because it constrains the brass just below the case mouth so it cannot bell outward during crimping, as can happen with a regular seating/crimping die. The third image from left in my drawing, below, shows this greatly exaggerated. Such a bulge from over-crimping can prevent a round from chambering and actually holds the bullet less firmly because the side friction is gone.

Crimping_zpsxqh6eaoe.jpg


Finally, instruction videos. If you are going to buy Lee dies, use Lee's instruction videos. They are:

Sizing die setup and adjustment.

Expanding die setup and adjustment.

Seating Die setup and adjustment.
 
An excellent explanation, as always, UncleNick.

I do take exception with this, though...
because it tends to shave a little metal off the bullet because it is still moving into the case as the crimp is formed.

its a small matter, but it is actually the case that is moving, not the bullet at this point.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I've always thought that it was the specific bullet profile that determines the crimp type - not what the headspace is based on.

It is, but its not the only thing. The bullet having a crimp groove or not determines which type of crimp will be most efficient, and to what degree.

The headspace type adds in further limitations. Cases that headspace on the case mouth should not be roll crimped, as the roll crimp can cause inconsistency in headspace. (no sharp shoulder to stop on) Cases that headspace on the rim, don't care about that.

For instance, an auto pistol round that headspaces on the case mouth, could be roll crimped (suitable bullet) and used in a revolver with moon clips and work just fine. The exact same roll crimped round could be a problem in an auto pistol. (we don't usually bother to roll crimp auto pistol rounds for revolver use, as the "standard" taper crimp on them works just fine in a revolver, too...)

How much crimp you need depends on the specifics of the load, and the gun you are shooting them from. For example, I have found that uncrimped .38s from a S&W N frame revolver work fine, and the bullets do not "jump crimp" (move forward under recoil)

The same ammo (no crimp) from a Detective Special does have the bullets walk out of the cases (to a degree). In this case, even a light crimp is enough (for a regular .38 load.)

Shooting the same slug (bullet) from a .357 Mag is a different matter, entirely (more recoil) and a heavier crimp is needed in the light gun, and some crimp is needed in the heavy gun.

How much, of which depends on the specifics of what you are using, and while a good heavy crimp (of the appropriate type) works in about everything, it is not always needed in everything.

To the OP's question, dies for revolver rounds are standard with a roll crimp. There are exceptions. If in doubt, simply call the maker and ask.
 
Slight but relevant tangent (I hope).

I've just watched the Lee Seating Die set-up video. I tend to use the Lee FCD for my .44 and .38 reloads but I'd still like to know how to use the seating die to full effect.

I see in the video that the screw the die in to meet the mouth of an empty case, then use the bullet seater to achieve correct bullet seating depth.

They then turn the whole die half a turn more for a half-turn of crimp, but does this mean that the bullet would then also be seated that half turn deeper in the case?

Would it not be better to turn the die in that half-turn, whilst holding the bullet seating adjuster immobile?

This would mean it would dial out that half-turn as the die body dials in thus keeping the same distance between bullet seater and shell-holder as existed before the crimp was dialled in. And so the same OAL, no?

Am I missing something?
(You can see why I use the FCD now...)
 
Thanks again all and you did great Unclenick.

Gun is RedHawk 44 mag 7 .5 inch barrel.

I also bought a taper die just in case.

Looking for light loads to get back under this gun again. LOL

Now using Rem 44 mag factory ammo.


Jeff
 
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