Another Quality Budget SD Round?

H

Hamsterdam

Inactive
i have been excited about Georgia Arms Defense Rounds with the Speers bullet. $27.00 for 50 rnds is a great deal for good, quality bullets, loaded at their facility, which, being small, may lead to better QC. (very good deal)

Well, yesterday i came across Freedom Munitions, and they have: 50 rnd box of 124gr Hornady XTP— $19.99 (great deal?) :confused:

i am no shill for any company or brand, cept certain firearms i've learned to trust and love. i am just a curious if others have encountered or used this round, and at 7 bucks less per 50, it has a significant cost advantage, especially for training with what could be a competent SD round. AT this price, i think i'll grab a couple of boxes and do some of my own testing.

As always, all input and opinions are greatly appreciated.

Be Well,

—hamsterdam
 
Very good question. I just placed my first order with FM this week but will be end of next week before it arrives. I got the .38 reman loads, hoping for a cheaper, maybe lower recoil training option. I'm still new at this and hence nervous about "off brand" SD ammo. A good SD *cartridge* is more than the bullet after all - but as you say, the proof is in the testing.
 
Based on their 9mm I have shot I would not buy defense ammo from them. They are under powered for their 9mm 124 gr IMHO. I went to a 2 training class and people in a previous class used it and they had several squib rounds.

They also use odd brass with less capacity so they can use less powder.
 
I've fired several hundred of their reman 9mm rounds with no complaints. The biggest issue is shipping time which is not an issue for me. This was target ammo only, not defensive rounds.
 
In 2012, before the ammo shortage, I bought a few boxes of locally remanufactured FMJ 9 Luger for $10.50/box. In 2013 I had a hard time deciding to shoot it, because replacing it with comparable new factory loads, if even possible, would easily cost twice as much. It didn't make sense to save them; if, fact, it made sense to shoot them, so logic triumphed over emotion and down range they went without a hitch.

For casual practice ammo I see nothing wrong the remanufactured stuff. But, ask yourself how the remanufacturers are keeping their costs down? Perhaps the use of scavenged brass is the biggest cost savings. I don't see this as a big issue affecting reliability. My remanufactured rounds were boxed loosely, without any nice plastic holders. I doubt this affects reliability much.

I doubt that remanufacturers can compete with the big boys in terms of volume and economics of scale. Thus, they have to cut corners somewhere. My concern is that quality control is one area that is easy to scrimp on. And, I can see how using just a little less powder per case would be economically tempting. For practice rounds such corner cutting causes little or no harm, but place a good quality self-defense bullet atop a case with a light powder charge may result in a round that fails to produce adequate penetration or reliable expansion.

Getting a couple of boxes to test is fine, but what can you accomplish with a mere 100 rounds? You can do terminal ballistics testing, but I doubt you will, because it's a big hassle and expense to do it right, which is why the remanufacturers don't do it -- it saves them money not to. Few of the YouTuber terminal ballistics testers do it right, which means keeping the gel at a controlled temperature, calibrating the gel with a calibrated BB gun shot, and doing replicate shots -- the IWBA recommends 10 shots, ShootingTheBull does 5, but most do only 1 shot.

You can do reliability testing by firing your 100 rounds and keeping track of the number of failures you experience. How confident do you want to be? The standard default confidence rate used by most scientists for hypothesis testing is 95%. If that is the confidence rate you are comfortable with, and if you experience, as you hope, no failures, you can be 95% certain that the ammo's failure rate in your gun is no more that least 2.95% (http://statpages.org/confint.html).

For firing reliability testing I want a sample size greater than 100 shots (probably at a confidence rate higher than 95%, given that reliability can be a life or death issue). For terminal ballistics performance I have to rely on the results available from the manufacturer, and only the big boys do this. Because the big boys may be tempted to fudge their reporting, I like to see their results confirmed by a YouTuber.
 
I have a few different calibers from FM and the only problem I have found is with there new 240 gr 44mag. It was not powerful enough to cycle my desert eagle. Good thing I have 44mag revolver to use the other 490 rounds I have left. All my ammo from FM and anyone else is new. I dont trust reman ammo.
 
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I hear a lot of stories about ammo issues from Freedom Munitions. Good enough for practice, but you may get a squib load so care should be taken.


I have used Georgia Arms before and had no problems with them. I had a case of 500. I don't hear much about them online, so they must not have too many problems.



Most practice is with FMJ... You shoot enough of your chosen HP ammo to feel confident it will function reliably in your pistol. The amount it takes to gain this confidence varies and is subjective.

After that, you mostly shoot fmj, and only shoot some of the HP every now and then to cycle through it and to stay familiar with how it recoils and shoots.


I would buy two or three boxes of the GA and shoot that and feel confident it functioned in my pistol. (If there were no function issues) I would also buy a few extra boxes at the same time, which ensures its made near the same time or is the same lot, to keep on hand to use as my carry ammo.

When I ran low, I would buy a few boxes again and test one box through the pistol to ensure no changes have been made to cause function issues with the new lot.
 
Yup, and the only remanufactured round i ever plan on using is my own. The Hornadys i was considering were the new case rounds. So the consensus seems, these Hornady rounds on FM aren't up to snuff with The GA Speer Unicore. i can't say i am totally shocked. A great deal is often that way for a reason.

i do have some GA Speers on order to evaluate, but probably i will ultimately go with Critical Defense or Duty for everyday after i am out of the Barnes TacXPD. i just like their design, it meets the best specs, and addresses clogging in an clever way. The nice musrhooming is a very nice aspect as well. That and i think Double Tap would blow my PT111 Pro out

Generally something cheap is that way for a purpose
 
Missin the old days...

Back when we were Farming, i could test a round really well....see, we would have 3-4 dead hogs per season. Those will tell you how a round rips tissue and bone up.

i do agree that 100 isn't a sample size for reliability, or expansion, without the require gel and conditions. i guess my question would be, why are the Georgia Arms Speer Unicore ok, while FM rates the "New" Hornady XTP 124 gr at 1100 f.p.s.—(or are they allowed to play fast and loose with their numbers?), not ok?

If it is because of widespread use of the Speers tipped GA, rendering a good sample size, making people happy with their product, them good on em'. i like a place that does its level best to deliver very high quality, at a modest profit margin. As anyone who does bulk reloading knows, the components are not always that spendy, (esp. if you save the hulls) and i'd assume a large manufacturer procures them for much less than i.

It may be that FA is s sham company. When i said 100 rds to give a go, it would have been on the farm, where we can shoot into a 150 gal tank, and other farm type things. i spose i could go to the butcher and get a Goat or Hog's head to really give it a run....but mostly i wanted to feel the recoil, check in that 100 for any FTE, Stovepipes or FTF. i figured...if more than a couple fail in any way, this would never be my defense round. i currently carry 2 mags of Barnes Tac XPD, with my Hydrashoks ready, and my GA Speers coming....does anyone here carry Georgia arms as their everyday SD?

Anyhoot, i used the money i was gonna spend on the FA rounds to get a nice, small cleaning kit for my 9mm, with a Hoope's "pull-thru" cleaner, for the range. i am thinking about getting some 30.06 rounds from FA, though....mine are getting a bit tarnished, wouldn't hurt to get some fresh in, i figure with FMJ, and a good day on the farm, siting in, it would probably be a fine deer round...and of course, a buck ain't gonna draw on me. :)

Thoughts?

—hamsterdam
 
Dreaming100Straight— Short Barrel....Taurus PT111PRO, so its 3.5"...i think that lets any +P+ rounds right out, and im not sure that high of pressure is necessary, though....wow!

Right now i do range, and farm shooting from a chair. Our "anyone can conceal carry" Law goes into effect on July 1. i am very accustomed to firearms, just not quite in this way...all of my defense (Prayerfully never needed) will be coming from a powerchair, as i am a disabled vet...not disabled in any theatre.

Nonetheless, it is a different dynamic than other defense situations. Fleeing isn't an option at 8 mph, so i want my rounds to be effective, hopefully without having to repeat fire much.

The Hornadys seem like a good fit for this scenario, but as you and others have mentioned, i will be researching the heck out of this....once i'm on something, i'm like a bulldog, going after every bit of info available.

The GA Speers Unicore may also be that round...i'll know better when they arrive. Yet, i still wonder how the new(not reloads) manufactured Hornady bullet rounds from FA perform...if they load the powder light...obviously its a big problem, though they claim 1100 fps muzzle speed.

i will watch lots more YT tests, read even more, and maybe get a box of 4-5 rounds i am considering, and just try them out for feel, recoil and maybe grab a hogs head from the butcher to test some penetration dynamics...i do get obsessive about knowing my tools. :) Well, within my financial capabilities.

One great note on this whole deal....The Police Chief informed me of a trainer in town, who has worked with many chair bound folks regarding carry, and use in that position. Thankfully our small town has Good Cops.

Be Well and Safe, everyone!

—hamsterdam
 
Sometimes I have to learn things the hard way.But the old adage,"you get what you pay for"has been the hardest.We all love"bargains"! :D
 
For $27/50 why not just get gold dots loaded by Speer? A quick search shows they can be had for that price.

As far as a cheaper option I sometimes come across Fiocchi Extrema (xtp bullets) in the $12/25 range and have also found some great prices on Golden Sabers. They are admittedly an older design but I have found them adequate in my testing.

Ammo prices have come down so much I don't see the point in not buying from a major manufacturer (especially for defensive loads)

ETA. Ammunition depot currently has Critical Duty at $23/50
 
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I buy Federal HST 9mm 124gr for $21/box 50 online. Speer Gold Dots can be had for as low as $20/box 50. No reason for me to buy anything else.
 
I buy Federal HST 9mm 124gr for $21/box 50 online. Speer Gold Dots can be had for as low as $20/box 50. No reason for me to buy anything else.
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Agreed. Reman is fine for practice(i reload so I don't bother), but personally I can't justify the savings when talking about SD rounds.
 
"Quality Budget SD rounds" is arguably a contradiction in terms. A better question might be, "which SD ammos give the most bang for the buck." I doubt that any will be "budget" rounds.

SD rounds are not produced in the same quantity as the cheaper ammo, nor used as much, the bullets are more costly to manufacture, etc. It's like trying to find a low-cost Ferrari when all you want to spend is what an economy car costs...

I just get the best SD ammo I can -- and most of them perform very similarly, if the various tests seen on YouTube and in gun mags are an indication--and try to find practice ammo that has similar loads.

The biggest difference I've found is that the SD ammo is generally a bit more accurate and makes prettier holes in targets than the cheaper stuff.

I've not seen evaluations of Georgia-Arms SD ammo, but may next check into that one of these days, as I love their "Canned Heat" ammo for range fun.
 
I just look at self defense ammunition in one simple way- What is my life worth?

Is my life worth saving $2-$3? Obviously not. I want a proven SD round from a top tier, reputable manufacturer that I can be 99.999%:D sure will go bang every time when/if I am in a situation where I need to defend my life.

After much research on the topic, I choose either Federal or Speer for my SD needs. Winchester Ranger is decent if it's all I can find as well, but the HST and Gold Dots are my top choice.
 
thanks!

Good point, well taken. This quest began after i had heard great things about the GA Speers rounds, however, the prices listed for the premium rounds mentioned in the posts here top their prices, and reputation. Ultimately, as i do with my shotgun, id like to reload my own rounds, but that is down the road a ways. Critical duty at $23 per 50 makes them economical enough to get some real practice and siting done with them, as well as being the primary SD round.

i appreciate everyone's input on this. Like everyone, i like to be able to practice with my SD rounds as much as possible. FMJs for me, are more about weapon familiarity, muscle memory and repetition, which is equally important, and for that, i am glad they are economical. i only want to be able to afford to practice regularly with my SD round also. i'm not just looking for the cheapest thing to maybe barely work. What i've learned from the posts here is that there is proven ordnance at prices i've not found before. Price isn't the prime consideration of course, but now that i've learned about some better vendors, i can be both effective and frugal.

Thank you all,

—hamsterdam
 
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