Another noob question
- Thread starter Wrothgar
- Start date
That's a more interesting question than you'd think 
.
In terms of raw energy, no. In terms of effectiveness...in my opinion YES if you pick the very best 38+P loads.
Follow along with:
http://billstclair.com/energy.html
The Speer Gold Dot 135gr 38+P is among the best 38+Ps. It's a 135gr slug doing about 875fps or so from a snubbie (read: 2" barrel). That gives you 229ft/lbs energy.
Speer's standard-pressure 9mm 115gr Gold Dot is rated 1,200fps from the muzzle, and most standard-size handguns (Glock 19 or broadly similar, 4" barrel or so) will drive it that fast. That's 368ft/lbs energy.
BUT!!!
The "lowly" 38 has an interesting advantage. It's nose shape doesn't have to make compromises to be crammed up an autoloader's feed ramp. So the Speer 38 nose cone shape involves a truly massive hollowpoint, which in turn aids expansion reliability. The autoloader nose shape has to be more rounded with a smaller hollowpoint cavity, otherwise the gun would jam up.
So in terms of expansion reliability, the 38 might actually have the edge. I consider these two loads about equal in stopping power with a possible small advantage to the 38 for it's slightly more reliable expansion, esp. if you're dealing with heavy clothes (winter?) and the possibility of the hollowpoint cavity plugging up.
Now factor in one more thing. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ammo. He has one particular load that's just hell on wheels out of a 38 snubbie: a 158gr all-lead hollowpoint +P that does an honest 1,000fps from a snubbie. That's 350ft/lbs energy, right up into 9mm territory. NOT for use in ultralight or antique guns(!) but in something reasonably modern and weighing over 15oz, this is the absolute king of the hill monsterload in 38+P.
.In terms of raw energy, no. In terms of effectiveness...in my opinion YES if you pick the very best 38+P loads.
Follow along with:
http://billstclair.com/energy.html
The Speer Gold Dot 135gr 38+P is among the best 38+Ps. It's a 135gr slug doing about 875fps or so from a snubbie (read: 2" barrel). That gives you 229ft/lbs energy.
Speer's standard-pressure 9mm 115gr Gold Dot is rated 1,200fps from the muzzle, and most standard-size handguns (Glock 19 or broadly similar, 4" barrel or so) will drive it that fast. That's 368ft/lbs energy.
BUT!!!
The "lowly" 38 has an interesting advantage. It's nose shape doesn't have to make compromises to be crammed up an autoloader's feed ramp. So the Speer 38 nose cone shape involves a truly massive hollowpoint, which in turn aids expansion reliability. The autoloader nose shape has to be more rounded with a smaller hollowpoint cavity, otherwise the gun would jam up.
So in terms of expansion reliability, the 38 might actually have the edge. I consider these two loads about equal in stopping power with a possible small advantage to the 38 for it's slightly more reliable expansion, esp. if you're dealing with heavy clothes (winter?) and the possibility of the hollowpoint cavity plugging up.
Now factor in one more thing. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ammo. He has one particular load that's just hell on wheels out of a 38 snubbie: a 158gr all-lead hollowpoint +P that does an honest 1,000fps from a snubbie. That's 350ft/lbs energy, right up into 9mm territory. NOT for use in ultralight or antique guns(!) but in something reasonably modern and weighing over 15oz, this is the absolute king of the hill monsterload in 38+P.
Depends on the expected threat
.If the threat involves the possibility of a LOT of attackers, gang territory or the like, then yeah round count starts to matter.
BUT if the threat is a close-range mugger/ambush type of thing, then...wheelguns start to have major advantages. Esp. one with a short barrel. Harder to grab away in a close grapple, can't go out of battery on direct muzzle contact. Plus no safety to sweep off, plus generally good ergonomics (most of the time) and a better DA trigger feel (damn near all of the time as compared to DAO or DA/SA autos).
At grapple range, the "lowly" snub-nose revolver becomes the dominant weapon.
imthegrumpyone
New member
If it's just between the two .38+P is hands over a 9mm in my book, power wise, capacity 6 verses 19 or 20 rounds that's another story.
To answer that question in it's simplest form, I'd say yes, although the 9mm wins just about every time for power, but the .38 is .005" bigger (.355" compared to .357").
On the low end of 9mm vs the high end of .38 the gap closes, but I think the 9mm still just push a little harder.
That's why God made the .357magnum.
Jim Downey
New member
Some good answers already, and the evenness of the split should tell you something: other criteria for choosing one over the other are probably more important for a given individual.
Me, I'm happy to carry, and rely on, either - once again, depending on other factors. I shoot my 642 better than I shoot my Rohrbaugh, so I usually carry it as my "pocket gun", even though it has two fewer rounds. When I can carry something bigger, I usually opt for a more powerful cartridge, as well as more rounds. But they're all just handguns - with the limitations and trade offs that go with that fact.
In terms of actual performance of a given cartridge, check the site that Jim March cited, and take a look at the numbers on BBTI (see my sig).
Jim D.
Me, I'm happy to carry, and rely on, either - once again, depending on other factors. I shoot my 642 better than I shoot my Rohrbaugh, so I usually carry it as my "pocket gun", even though it has two fewer rounds. When I can carry something bigger, I usually opt for a more powerful cartridge, as well as more rounds. But they're all just handguns - with the limitations and trade offs that go with that fact.
In terms of actual performance of a given cartridge, check the site that Jim March cited, and take a look at the numbers on BBTI (see my sig).
Jim D.
azredhawk44
Moderator
I'm a bigger believer in mass than energy.
The .38 has more case capacity, and so can have heavier bullets than a 9mm.
The 9mm caps out at 147gr, which are really meant for submachine guns and suppressed weapons. Most premium self defense loads cap out around 135gr, but finding anything other than 115gr in stores right now is a major difficulty.
The .38 runs the gamut from 110gr to 158gr in retail offerings.
Given the possibility of that grappling situation... you're not going to get a square shot right at the chest or lung of your attacker. You're gonna have your arm pressed sideways and may have to shoot through a bicep laterally to get to the vitals or CNS. Every extra inch of penetration is gonna help, and mass gets that done. Not velocity.
I load Speer Gold Dot 125gr +p's in my .38 right now because I don't yet have any 158gr buffalo bore LSWCHP ammo.
The .38 has more case capacity, and so can have heavier bullets than a 9mm.
The 9mm caps out at 147gr, which are really meant for submachine guns and suppressed weapons. Most premium self defense loads cap out around 135gr, but finding anything other than 115gr in stores right now is a major difficulty.
The .38 runs the gamut from 110gr to 158gr in retail offerings.
Given the possibility of that grappling situation... you're not going to get a square shot right at the chest or lung of your attacker. You're gonna have your arm pressed sideways and may have to shoot through a bicep laterally to get to the vitals or CNS. Every extra inch of penetration is gonna help, and mass gets that done. Not velocity.
I load Speer Gold Dot 125gr +p's in my .38 right now because I don't yet have any 158gr buffalo bore LSWCHP ammo.
Explained that way, I'd have to agree with you. A snubbie revolver probably makes an excelent ATM gun. Most semi-auto guys (and I'm one of those) would probably argue that you never know how many attackers you will be faced with. But, I'd say that when you go to pull money out of an ATM machine there's a good chance that only one guy is waiting to mug you. Yes, in that situation I would rather have something like a snubnose .357.
There's another way to look at it.
Some people make a point of having a snubby on them ALL the time. It's their go-to gun in any emergency, set up for fast access (within limits of fashion and concealability). Front-right-pocket with a hammerless is popular.
Then, if they're going into anything that looks at all like "harm's way", they strap on something else in addition...semi-auto in a shoulder rig fr'instance.
In any sudden surprise, they're going to go for the snubby first. If they've run into one of the RARE situations where it's more trouble than a snub can cope with, they transition.
Full disclosure: I don't do that. I pack a full-size 357 just because I can, and I like that particular gun. The main practical advantage I get by going "big" first is...well, intimidation. I think somebody is fractionally more likely to run away screaming like a little girl if you pull a BIG gun over a smallish one. The difference isn't major but I think it does exist. So I pack a cannon, and it's loaded with the nastiest stuff I can lay hands on, which right now is Doubletap's full-house 125gr Gold Dots that I once blew up a bowling ball with. I can control that stuff with a 42oz gun .
BUT either way, there's a big advantage to carrying the same gun in the same place every day. That's what I do, and that's what the "snubby first at bat" crowd is doing too.
Some people make a point of having a snubby on them ALL the time. It's their go-to gun in any emergency, set up for fast access (within limits of fashion and concealability). Front-right-pocket with a hammerless is popular.
Then, if they're going into anything that looks at all like "harm's way", they strap on something else in addition...semi-auto in a shoulder rig fr'instance.
In any sudden surprise, they're going to go for the snubby first. If they've run into one of the RARE situations where it's more trouble than a snub can cope with, they transition.
Full disclosure: I don't do that. I pack a full-size 357 just because I can, and I like that particular gun. The main practical advantage I get by going "big" first is...well, intimidation. I think somebody is fractionally more likely to run away screaming like a little girl if you pull a BIG gun over a smallish one. The difference isn't major but I think it does exist. So I pack a cannon, and it's loaded with the nastiest stuff I can lay hands on, which right now is Doubletap's full-house 125gr Gold Dots that I once blew up a bowling ball with
. I can control that stuff with a 42oz gun .BUT either way, there's a big advantage to carrying the same gun in the same place every day. That's what I do, and that's what the "snubby first at bat" crowd is doing too.
LightningJoe
New member
There's some difference between the two cartridges on the BG end, but it's probably negligible. The bigger difference is in the guns that fire them. When you say .38 vs 9mm, you're really saying revolver vs automatic. Framing the discussion as one between the two cartridges instead of one between the two platforms is like asking about the difference between gasoline and diesel instead of the difference between a Corvette and a dump truck
Yep; not to be counted on, but if the BG takes off whilst pooping his pants, all the better.
I currently carry K Frame S&Ws with absolutely no troubles (I'm 6'7", 205-210 lbs). In fact, it is so easy that I am thinking about getting an IWB holster for the N Frame S&W Model 28 4" I am in the process of acquiring. Something about those massive, dull finish Highway Patrolmans that just gives you a chill up the spine when looking at them
. And if the gun breaks (as anything made by man can), it makes a superb blugeoning device. I most certainly don't want to get shot, but getting cracked on the head by a S&W N Frame doesn't sound fun either. 
Sure, if you can shoot it well and are confident with it. I respect Glocks, but I can't hit the side of a barn from inside with the doors closed with one. Seriously, I stink with a Glock
. But a snubnose Model 15 .38 Special? They just point and handle so well for me.So back to the OP, I'd just choose the platform that works best for you (shot placement) and load it up with a good quality hollowpoint load that has sufficient penetration - the FBI's 12" minimum penetration standard is used by many.
Don't sweat the caliber so much.
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orionengnr
New member
Do math much?
That is not a fact, it is a conclusion. Your conclusion discounts such factors as width, length, weight, and ability to pocket carry (thus enabling one to always be armed).
While it may be the right conclusion for you, many others have arrived at a different conclusion.
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