I want to see if annealing my brass will do anything for my groups. Before I invest in a machine I would like to send 100 cases to a brass annealing service that I see advertised on other forums. DJ's is one and Buckeye Brass is the other. Does anyone have any experience with these or are there any others out there worth using?
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Annealling Services
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
GeorgeandSugar
New member
You could likely do it yourself. Plenty of YouTube videos on the topic. You could try and then purchase some annealed brass and compare results or send brass to both and compare.
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I agree with the purchasing concept. Buy yourself 50 or 100 new Lapua just to see if it does better. Everything I've read about tests of accuracy after annealing indicates that if it helps precision (group size) it is a very small factor. The kind of thing a benchrest competitor throwing sub ¼moa groups routinely might see a difference from, but not us mere ½moa guys. Bryan Litz could not tell any difference for long range loads using what is arguably the most precise annealing equipment made (the AMP device).
The chances are you will get much more mileage out of first making sure your gun doesn't need its lugs lapped or its muzzle recrowned or its bedding redone and being sure the mainspring is new enough not to have taken a set (less than 5 years old or so). Once you are sure the gun is in order, on the reloading front start by making sure you are reconsolidating primers properly (seating them about -0.003" beyond the level at which the anvils kiss the bottom of the primer pocket). Next, making sure your loaded cartridges have as close to zero runout as you can measure (0.001" or better TIR; lots of threads discussing this) as going from average runout (0.004" or so) to zero runout can cut as much as one moa off group size with some bullets. Finally, make sure you've tried several different amounts of bullet jump from zero to as much as an eighth of an inch or so. This seems to time the pressure peak and velocity flat spots to coordinate it with the muzzle deflection whipping phase.
After you've covered those bases and your premium brass is shooting the way you like, then go back and see if the regular stuff is still shooting wider groups. If it is, it may need necks outside turned, and if it is springy for that, then annealing may help make it workable again.
This article is a good read.
The chances are you will get much more mileage out of first making sure your gun doesn't need its lugs lapped or its muzzle recrowned or its bedding redone and being sure the mainspring is new enough not to have taken a set (less than 5 years old or so). Once you are sure the gun is in order, on the reloading front start by making sure you are reconsolidating primers properly (seating them about -0.003" beyond the level at which the anvils kiss the bottom of the primer pocket). Next, making sure your loaded cartridges have as close to zero runout as you can measure (0.001" or better TIR; lots of threads discussing this) as going from average runout (0.004" or so) to zero runout can cut as much as one moa off group size with some bullets. Finally, make sure you've tried several different amounts of bullet jump from zero to as much as an eighth of an inch or so. This seems to time the pressure peak and velocity flat spots to coordinate it with the muzzle deflection whipping phase.
After you've covered those bases and your premium brass is shooting the way you like, then go back and see if the regular stuff is still shooting wider groups. If it is, it may need necks outside turned, and if it is springy for that, then annealing may help make it workable again.
This article is a good read.
annealing "may" help with case life but I have my doubts about it doing anything for grouping. For me the biggest factor in group size is finding the right seating depth and making sure the cases are consistent in length and properly sized with low runout and with good neck tension. That works for me with my vertical dispersion but there ain't a piece of equipment in the world that can help with my mirage and wind reading skills
That being said I do anneal after every firing but only because that was because I spent several hundred dollars on a annealing machine. In retrospect I would have never bought it but because it is sitting on my bench and long ago paid for so why not use it. It does make my cases look like they just came out of that blue box. Same reason that I wet tumble. It makes em purty and purty has been scientifically proven to get another half MOA off you groups hasn't it ?
That being said I do anneal after every firing but only because that was because I spent several hundred dollars on a annealing machine. In retrospect I would have never bought it but because it is sitting on my bench and long ago paid for so why not use it. It does make my cases look like they just came out of that blue box. Same reason that I wet tumble. It makes em purty and purty has been scientifically proven to get another half MOA off you groups hasn't it ?
I don't want to try it myself and ruin the brass. It is all Lapua brass
Having played with it I agree and I also go with Unclenic/houndawg. It won't do anything for accuracy if you are a 1/2 MOA shooter like Unclenick and I am (most days!) but I have a pretty good target setup on my guns.
Annealing also is a learning curve and extremely anal if you are going to do it right.
So one of the threads the thread is : (there are others, just search Anneal or Annealing)
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585870
Just remember, anyone that says glowing is way off base, that is far too much.
Torch is not easy and the induction type also has a learning curve. I ruined brass with a torch (good enough for hunting though) and I have done fine with the induction but I snuck up on it very carefully and a lot of background with temp crayons and heating from my mechanical work.
Each time I run a batch I restest how long I induct it for and have 3 checkouts to ensure as best I can I am not over doing it.
Regardless, you never ever want to heat up the whole case as that soften the base that HAS to be hard. Anyone that talks about putting it in an oven for X amount of time is not just wrong, they are scary dangerous.
Cost wise you have to weigh shipping and their cost vs new brass.
I used mostly once fire RP and find that as good as Lapua.
Not to dis Lapua, but I think its over rated, the new stuff I get has to have an M die to fix the necks as about 10% are dented.
Norma is truly high grade stuff. For a 1/2 MOA shooter like I am on a normal day, not worth it.
I dunno RC20 I have to disagree on the Lapua, I am a bit of a fanboy of theirs.
I have a ziplock bag in my bench with some 8 year old Lapua Palma .308 cases that are north of 25X reloadings and the only problems I had with them was loose primer pockets from pushing 155.5 Bergers way too fast. Never had LC, Peterson, Starline, or Hornady last that long. I had some Norma in .204 that went north of ten before I quit shooting that cartridge. Those 308's were being shot during the time I annealed in a darkend room with a socket chucked in a cordless drill waiting for a dukll red glow. They still .5 MOA last time I loaded .308. I also have almost all of a hundred .260 cases that are north of ten, primer pocket issues have culled a hand full. The .223 Lapuas are in their teens also with all 100 are still shooting like new. I have never had any sort of case failure with Lapua other than the occasional sloppy primer pocket after running some hot loads
Never had any necks splits with any brand other than range pickup but I did have a neck separation and a head separation from two other brands as well as a coupel of split cases.
From here on out Lapua will probably be about only brass I will ever use in a target rifle. Nosler/Norma is the only other brand I would consider
I have a ziplock bag in my bench with some 8 year old Lapua Palma .308 cases that are north of 25X reloadings and the only problems I had with them was loose primer pockets from pushing 155.5 Bergers way too fast. Never had LC, Peterson, Starline, or Hornady last that long. I had some Norma in .204 that went north of ten before I quit shooting that cartridge. Those 308's were being shot during the time I annealed in a darkend room with a socket chucked in a cordless drill waiting for a dukll red glow. They still .5 MOA last time I loaded .308. I also have almost all of a hundred .260 cases that are north of ten, primer pocket issues have culled a hand full. The .223 Lapuas are in their teens also with all 100 are still shooting like new. I have never had any sort of case failure with Lapua other than the occasional sloppy primer pocket after running some hot loads
Never had any necks splits with any brand other than range pickup but I did have a neck separation and a head separation from two other brands as well as a coupel of split cases.
From here on out Lapua will probably be about only brass I will ever use in a target rifle. Nosler/Norma is the only other brand I would consider
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scatterbrain
New member
If you beleive that consistantency contributes to good groups anealing wins handsdown. I measure my brass before starting the reloading process, again before sizing, and then after resizing, they will be within .0005 for length every time. Also, check for runout after sizing, within .0001 everytime, and after bullet seating, within .0001 everytime. And, primer pockets give up first. Maybe anealing doesn't improve my shooting, but I feel better about my reloading. Oh, SD's will average around 10 with brass that is of unknown age, lot, (pickup).
Maybe anealing doesn't improve my shooting, but I feel better about my reloading.
having confidence in your equipment just by itself is going to improve your shooting. I look at my annealer like a rabbits foot or a lucky hat. It might not help but it sure as hell doesn't hurt
firewrench044
New member
To produce accuracy everything needs to be the same or as close as you can get it
So when you annual your cases that makes them more consistent
And that improveves accuracy
You may only notice this at 300 yards and farther but it does help
That improvement may only be 5 or 10 % , but that much difference in competition can be the
All that's needed to win or get the next higher position
That difference in hunting, at longer ranges, can be the difference of a clean kill or just wounding
I had a friend annual 100 cases to try it
That experiment resulted In my purchase of an annealing machine
I now anneal-- 223, 308, 303, 3006, 243, 270, 7.62x54R, 6.5x55, 50BMG, 270 MAG, 300 MAG, 338MAG, 3030 and others
So when you annual your cases that makes them more consistent
And that improveves accuracy
You may only notice this at 300 yards and farther but it does help
That improvement may only be 5 or 10 % , but that much difference in competition can be the
All that's needed to win or get the next higher position
That difference in hunting, at longer ranges, can be the difference of a clean kill or just wounding
I had a friend annual 100 cases to try it
That experiment resulted In my purchase of an annealing machine
I now anneal-- 223, 308, 303, 3006, 243, 270, 7.62x54R, 6.5x55, 50BMG, 270 MAG, 300 MAG, 338MAG, 3030 and others
It's not done on any kind of regular basis.
You keep repeating that, its not factual. If you are going to stop neck splits, it has to be done roughly every 5 to 8 firings.
I dunno RC20 I have to disagree on the Lapua, I am a bit of a fanboy of theirs.
While I certainly defer to people and preferences, from my experience, its just not superior in any way to RP.
I have been shooting Lapua side by side with 308 and 30-06 for some time.
While I am in (Unclenick?) 1/2 MOA group, I don't see any difference with same bullets, same loads in side by side shooting.
The RP is holding up equally with the Lapua (as long as I anneal of course!)
The Lapua I got had dented case mouths, maybe 10% or a bit more. None of my RP has had that. That does not negate other possible qualities, but it sure is not my definition of quality control, I expect it to be perfect for the price.
On the other hand, I have PPU in 7.5, 308, 30-06 and none of those had dented case mouths bought new.
I would say its on par with RP and maybe a bit better clean up wise with PPU. They all weight close to the same.
The report I saw had it lasting no longer than RP in a stress test (and I don't have that link, drats).
The only one that really stood out was Norma. RP, Lapua were mid range and side by side. One or two other ones but don't remember which in roughly the same group/area.
RP is common range pickup or I get it once fired. Not bad for an equal that is just missing the blue box (grin)
firewrench044
New member
I have used many thousands of cases in competition ( 3006, 308, 223 )
I anneal after every firing ( that eliminates mixing brass with different number of firings (That effects accuracy))
( in competition -- LAPUA lasted 30 firings, LC lasted 30, WINCHESTER 20, REMINGTON 20, PPU 20,
NORMA 25, FEDERAL 10 ( primer pockets loose )
I disagree with RC20
Dented case mouths can and will happen to all brands ( all cases should be sized before use anyway )
I find LAPUA brass better than the others ( much more consistent, therefore smaller patterns and higher scores )
I use many of the ones you have mentioned for hunting ammo ( fired and the cases left where they
were ejected )
I anneal after every firing ( that eliminates mixing brass with different number of firings (That effects accuracy))
( in competition -- LAPUA lasted 30 firings, LC lasted 30, WINCHESTER 20, REMINGTON 20, PPU 20,
NORMA 25, FEDERAL 10 ( primer pockets loose )
I disagree with RC20
Dented case mouths can and will happen to all brands ( all cases should be sized before use anyway )
I find LAPUA brass better than the others ( much more consistent, therefore smaller patterns and higher scores )
I use many of the ones you have mentioned for hunting ammo ( fired and the cases left where they
were ejected )
Lapua: When you buy a plastic sacks (I have 500 of the 7.5 and 100 of the 30-06) of PPU and none are dented, and you buy a plastic box of Lapua and 10-20% are dented, that tells me they have been rough handled and I am not impressed.
Now I don't claim I am bench rest class, and I said maybe if you were you could see the difference.
I have fired 30-06 and 308 Lapua side by side with RP and PPU (mostly) and see no difference.
So, as a starter, I have bought once fired RP and new PPU and I collect the RP at the range when it shows up. Probably have 500-1000 of those in 30-06 and unknown in 308.
Note few if any of the once fired RP were dented either.
If and when the RP starts to go, I have a whole new reset of fine brass.
I have yet to shoot out the RP which gets shot the most. At a guess 15-20 cycles.
I anneal once every 5 firings. Seems to work fine for my class shooting.
Now I don't claim I am bench rest class, and I said maybe if you were you could see the difference.
I have fired 30-06 and 308 Lapua side by side with RP and PPU (mostly) and see no difference.
So, as a starter, I have bought once fired RP and new PPU and I collect the RP at the range when it shows up. Probably have 500-1000 of those in 30-06 and unknown in 308.
Note few if any of the once fired RP were dented either.
If and when the RP starts to go, I have a whole new reset of fine brass.
I have yet to shoot out the RP which gets shot the most. At a guess 15-20 cycles.
I anneal once every 5 firings. Seems to work fine for my class shooting.