How important is it to anneal cases. The tech at Sierra told me it is very important. I use Lapua brass and shoot a Rem 700 with a Lilja barrel. I shoot at 100 yds. Each week I shoot 9 groups of 5 shots each. I average mid 4's. The tech at Sierra said I should anneal my cases for better groups. What is the best way to do this? Any help would make me happy and I will thank you. Is there a machine that will help me do this? Is annealing really necessary?
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Annealling cases
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
supercub99
New member
Please take a look at this current thread: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585870
Not sure the current thread is the right thread for a new annealer
Here are several threads about annealing .
https://thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=9774340
Then there's the good old google search . I strongly recommend you research this topic before returning to this thread . Many here will give many different answers and IMHO you're better off reading some articles first to have a base line of understanding . This will allow you to sift through what most certainly will become a contentious thread .
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
http://www.massreloading.com/annealing.html
We need a "sticky" on this topic .
Here are several threads about annealing .
https://thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=9774340
Then there's the good old google search . I strongly recommend you research this topic before returning to this thread . Many here will give many different answers and IMHO you're better off reading some articles first to have a base line of understanding . This will allow you to sift through what most certainly will become a contentious thread .
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
http://www.massreloading.com/annealing.html
We need a "sticky" on this topic .
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JeepHammer
Moderator
All I can tell you is you can do it as simply as what works for you...
Some guys are happy with a candle, some with a $15 plumbers torch...
Some have years invested in study & thousands in machine builds.
This is one of those questions like "How deep is TOO deep?"
Seems dirt simple when you start out, you pretty quickly find you can actually earn a doctorate on this very subject...
Some guys are happy with a candle, some with a $15 plumbers torch...
Some have years invested in study & thousands in machine builds.
This is one of those questions like "How deep is TOO deep?"
Seems dirt simple when you start out, you pretty quickly find you can actually earn a doctorate on this very subject...
"...anneal my cases for better groups..." Annealing has nothing to do with accuracy. It's about extending case life. It's only done when you get one cracked case mouth. Pitch that one and anneal the rest.
"...Is there a machine..." Idlers use machines for a simple process. snicker. Mostly about how much money you want to spend. Simplest method is a pan of tap water up to just below the shoulder and a plain old $17 dollar propane torch kit from Home Depot. Or Brownell's will sell you a really fancy electric machine for $529.99.
"...Is there a machine..." Idlers use machines for a simple process. snicker. Mostly about how much money you want to spend. Simplest method is a pan of tap water up to just below the shoulder and a plain old $17 dollar propane torch kit from Home Depot. Or Brownell's will sell you a really fancy electric machine for $529.99.
Well if you read the now 5 page post on annealing you will find that none of that is true.
First annealing does help accuracy by giving consistent neck tension.
By the time you have a cracked case, you also have cases on the way to being cracked.
Now I will defer to JH on this, my experience with other metals, once a crack forms, you can't stop it. Anneal may delay it a bit, but its goner.
The time to anneal varies form bench rest shooters who do it every firing to more casual bench shooters like me who do it once every 5 times (though taking a lesson from JH, the Lapua may get annealed each time)
Others think 3 times and I would not disagree.
While fancy and expensive equipment is not needed in your world, good equipment and proper setup gets you consistent results in my world (and the annealing world)
So, while I agree and even encourage you should carry on doing things to your satisfaction, you are doing a dis-service to the reloading community in repeating incorrect information for a process that you are happy with but is not being done correctly.
The good news is being in water you won't have a case blow up, which I am ok with as well, its just I hate to see that happen to others and unfortunately having seen a gun blow up, one bystander got hit though not badly injured, a piece of shrapnel pierced the back wall of the shooting shed and if it had gone into someone there would have been serious wound and in the wrong place, fatal.
First annealing does help accuracy by giving consistent neck tension.
By the time you have a cracked case, you also have cases on the way to being cracked.
Now I will defer to JH on this, my experience with other metals, once a crack forms, you can't stop it. Anneal may delay it a bit, but its goner.
The time to anneal varies form bench rest shooters who do it every firing to more casual bench shooters like me who do it once every 5 times (though taking a lesson from JH, the Lapua may get annealed each time)
Others think 3 times and I would not disagree.
While fancy and expensive equipment is not needed in your world, good equipment and proper setup gets you consistent results in my world (and the annealing world)
So, while I agree and even encourage you should carry on doing things to your satisfaction, you are doing a dis-service to the reloading community in repeating incorrect information for a process that you are happy with but is not being done correctly.
The good news is being in water you won't have a case blow up, which I am ok with as well, its just I hate to see that happen to others and unfortunately having seen a gun blow up, one bystander got hit though not badly injured, a piece of shrapnel pierced the back wall of the shooting shed and if it had gone into someone there would have been serious wound and in the wrong place, fatal.
First annealing does help accuracy by giving consistent neck tension.
If tension could be measured there would be a gage available to measure the amount of tension. I have used tension gages; the first one measured in thousands of pounds, no where could I find anyone that could convert tensions to pounds. AND THEN: One day someone build a bullet seating press, no tension gage the gage was/is marked off in pounds. The hydraulic bullet seating gage does not seat in tension, it goes straight to pounds, meaning? It is not necessary to convert tensions to pounds, as I have said forever, go straight to pounds.
Same thing when pulling, pull them bullets in pounds, again, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
Well, the strain gauge Dyno I have access to measures in hundredths (1/100 lb.).
Both compression or pull/stretch, and it's used for precise testing of movement under pressure, not failure analysis.
It's intended purpose is shock absorbers, specifically testing changes in fluid flow orifices, so it gives running pressure vs. time compared to set movement distances.
With a clamp for bullet on top, shell holder in bottom, gives VERY precise pressure readings both prior to bullet movement in the case, the drag on the bullet from the case during movement to the point of release.
As expected, the pressure is highest before movement starts, reduces as bearing surfaces reduce as less of the bullet is in contact with the case neck.
This unit DOES NOT test for the case expansion/bloating as pressure inside a case rises during the firing cycle,
BUT,
The neck doesn't bloat until pressure can reach it in VOLUME and since the bullet is creating a blockage for pressure, and to a large extent sealing pressure from the neck BEFORE the bullet moves,
This is a valid testing method.
Again, valid, but not 100% precise simply because the firing pressure is not present.
This is like hardness testing without a micrograph of grain structure, hardness is an good indicator, but not 100% of the total picture...
Hardness PLUS micrograph PLUS bench fire testing is 100% of the picture.
Doesn't matter anyway, the science isn't going to matter to a guy with a plumbers torch, some annealing without being over cooked is beneficial, and only 1 in a million is going to Rockwell test, mount & prepare samples for micrograph, then bench fire for a complete picture.
You have to be seriously OCD for that when you only do 100 cases or less in a month.
Like we have all said, ANY annealing is a good thing, Don't over cook, use temp indicator paint, and anneal to what ever level you are comfortable with...
Both compression or pull/stretch, and it's used for precise testing of movement under pressure, not failure analysis.
It's intended purpose is shock absorbers, specifically testing changes in fluid flow orifices, so it gives running pressure vs. time compared to set movement distances.
With a clamp for bullet on top, shell holder in bottom, gives VERY precise pressure readings both prior to bullet movement in the case, the drag on the bullet from the case during movement to the point of release.
As expected, the pressure is highest before movement starts, reduces as bearing surfaces reduce as less of the bullet is in contact with the case neck.
This unit DOES NOT test for the case expansion/bloating as pressure inside a case rises during the firing cycle,
BUT,
The neck doesn't bloat until pressure can reach it in VOLUME and since the bullet is creating a blockage for pressure, and to a large extent sealing pressure from the neck BEFORE the bullet moves,
This is a valid testing method.
Again, valid, but not 100% precise simply because the firing pressure is not present.
This is like hardness testing without a micrograph of grain structure, hardness is an good indicator, but not 100% of the total picture...
Hardness PLUS micrograph PLUS bench fire testing is 100% of the picture.
Doesn't matter anyway, the science isn't going to matter to a guy with a plumbers torch, some annealing without being over cooked is beneficial, and only 1 in a million is going to Rockwell test, mount & prepare samples for micrograph, then bench fire for a complete picture.
You have to be seriously OCD for that when you only do 100 cases or less in a month.
Like we have all said, ANY annealing is a good thing, Don't over cook, use temp indicator paint, and anneal to what ever level you are comfortable with...
JeepHammer
Moderator
'Neck Tension' is a GROUP of all sorts of processes that compile to become 'Optimum' characteristics for what we are doing.
What we are looking for when annealing is to reabsorb stray molicules ('Dust'), and chips from broken chrystals that happen during 'Cold Working' the brass.
Firing & resizing are Cold Working processes.
A SPECIFIC CHRYSTALINE SIZE & ORIENTATION OF GRAINS is what makes brass 'OPTIMUM'.
Too large of chrystals, the brass doesn't have the pressure handling capabilities we rely on in cartridge brass,
Too large of chrystals and the brass becomes 'Sticky' and doesn't want to contract after firing or remove from the chamber,
Too large of chrystals and the brass stays undersized coming out of the die, there is no 'Snap Back' to a slightly larger size the die manufacturers are counting on for proper sizing.
Too SMALL, broken chrystals RESIST SIZING, they 'Snap Back' too much.
The defects compound to make faults that make the brass fail catastrophically, case & head separations, neck splits, ect.
OPTIMUM IS A CHRYSTAL SIZE AND GRAIN ORIENTATION BETWEEN 'HARD' & 'SOFT'.
THIS IS THE OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE, OR OPTIMUM CHARACTERISTICS FOR WHAT WE ARE DOING.
If this was 'Bearing Brass' or brass for bushings, we would want it MUCH harder,
If this were 'Spring' brass, we would want it as soft as possible.
For firearms cartridge cases, there is a quite specific, or optimum range we are looking for.
'Cartridge Brass' is fairly unique because it can be room temperature cold worked to extremes without total failure,
It can be annealed, chrystals re-formed under relatively low heat (heat ranges you can easily produce at home), and cartridge brass can be corrected without exotic gas enviormental, vacuum Chambers, or precise control of cooling after heating.
Open atmosphere & heat source are all that is required to produce the molecular change.
'Cold Working' breaks the chrystal structures into smaller and smaller bits.
Broken, occluded, 'Dirty' grain structure & small chrystals RESIST resizing!
They are UNDER STRESS in every direction, and they want to snap back to previous size, screwing up CONSISTENT sizing.
Since you have a SINGLE, GIVEN SIZING DIE, this isn't good.
You would have to have a full range of sizing dies, each microscopic different, and go through the range of dies until you found the one that beat the brass back to a given size that is your 'Constant' or 'Standard' size.
By restoring the brass to a point THE BRASS STRUCTURE is consistent, the brass will size consistently, then you need ONE SIZING DIE that beats the brass back to your perfered specifications.
Annealing removes the micro voids, the 'Dust' & fragments that happen when brass work hardens,
And when done PRECISELY CORRECTLY, you can even restore/control chrystal size,
All the while REMOVING RANDOM PRELOAD STRESSING that fights uniform resizing (cold working).
Annealing removes occlusions, voids, recombines the broken pieces of Chrystals back into the chrystaline structure.
This prevents a place for a crack to get started. Stress cracks in brass are simply broken up grain structure that is do bad the damaged sections pull apart,
By restoring structure, cracks don't form... The brass lives a crap load longer, but as a byproduct of annealing rather than annealing for brass longevity specifically.
----
The 'Annealing For Dummies' version is somewhere between 700*F and 800*F your brass will mostly 'Repair' itself.
There is no specific temp that will anneal perfectly since every brass formula is different.
Lower temps require more time, higher temps require almost zero time.
Undercooking is better than overcooking, under cooking will give you some benefit, and allow you to try again,
Overcooked is ruined forever, no PRACTICAL way to recover.
What we are looking for when annealing is to reabsorb stray molicules ('Dust'), and chips from broken chrystals that happen during 'Cold Working' the brass.
Firing & resizing are Cold Working processes.
A SPECIFIC CHRYSTALINE SIZE & ORIENTATION OF GRAINS is what makes brass 'OPTIMUM'.
Too large of chrystals, the brass doesn't have the pressure handling capabilities we rely on in cartridge brass,
Too large of chrystals and the brass becomes 'Sticky' and doesn't want to contract after firing or remove from the chamber,
Too large of chrystals and the brass stays undersized coming out of the die, there is no 'Snap Back' to a slightly larger size the die manufacturers are counting on for proper sizing.
Too SMALL, broken chrystals RESIST SIZING, they 'Snap Back' too much.
The defects compound to make faults that make the brass fail catastrophically, case & head separations, neck splits, ect.
OPTIMUM IS A CHRYSTAL SIZE AND GRAIN ORIENTATION BETWEEN 'HARD' & 'SOFT'.
THIS IS THE OPTIMUM PERFORMANCE, OR OPTIMUM CHARACTERISTICS FOR WHAT WE ARE DOING.
If this was 'Bearing Brass' or brass for bushings, we would want it MUCH harder,
If this were 'Spring' brass, we would want it as soft as possible.
For firearms cartridge cases, there is a quite specific, or optimum range we are looking for.
'Cartridge Brass' is fairly unique because it can be room temperature cold worked to extremes without total failure,
It can be annealed, chrystals re-formed under relatively low heat (heat ranges you can easily produce at home), and cartridge brass can be corrected without exotic gas enviormental, vacuum Chambers, or precise control of cooling after heating.
Open atmosphere & heat source are all that is required to produce the molecular change.
'Cold Working' breaks the chrystal structures into smaller and smaller bits.
Broken, occluded, 'Dirty' grain structure & small chrystals RESIST resizing!
They are UNDER STRESS in every direction, and they want to snap back to previous size, screwing up CONSISTENT sizing.
Since you have a SINGLE, GIVEN SIZING DIE, this isn't good.
You would have to have a full range of sizing dies, each microscopic different, and go through the range of dies until you found the one that beat the brass back to a given size that is your 'Constant' or 'Standard' size.
By restoring the brass to a point THE BRASS STRUCTURE is consistent, the brass will size consistently, then you need ONE SIZING DIE that beats the brass back to your perfered specifications.
Annealing removes the micro voids, the 'Dust' & fragments that happen when brass work hardens,
And when done PRECISELY CORRECTLY, you can even restore/control chrystal size,
All the while REMOVING RANDOM PRELOAD STRESSING that fights uniform resizing (cold working).
Annealing removes occlusions, voids, recombines the broken pieces of Chrystals back into the chrystaline structure.
This prevents a place for a crack to get started. Stress cracks in brass are simply broken up grain structure that is do bad the damaged sections pull apart,
By restoring structure, cracks don't form... The brass lives a crap load longer, but as a byproduct of annealing rather than annealing for brass longevity specifically.
----
The 'Annealing For Dummies' version is somewhere between 700*F and 800*F your brass will mostly 'Repair' itself.
There is no specific temp that will anneal perfectly since every brass formula is different.
Lower temps require more time, higher temps require almost zero time.
Undercooking is better than overcooking, under cooking will give you some benefit, and allow you to try again,
Overcooked is ruined forever, no PRACTICAL way to recover.
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