SmokeyBravo307
New member
Is it a good idea to anneli ( I hope that's right) .300 weatherby magnum brass? Don't beat me up to bad guys just curious!!!! Thanks fellas!!!!
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Anneailing..300 weatherby brass!!! Be nice please!!!!
- Thread starter SmokeyBravo307
- Start date
If you are experiencing frequent neck splits, annealing the necks would probably reduce that. Otherwise, annealing may not offer much benefit. If you find yourself needing to trim the necks every one or two loadings there may be no benefit to annealing the necks since the brass should be discarded after about the fourth trimming anyway.
If you are experiencing any neck splits or cracks, annealing will soften the rest and extend their useable life. Annealing is only done when you get a cracked neck. It is not a regular, every time, thing.
"...find yourself needing to trim the necks every one or two loadings..." Your chamber isn't right. Cases normally stretch the most on their first firing. If they stretch past the max case length given in your manual(2.825" -.012 for your Weatherby. That's 2.285" is max with a 12 thou less tolerance. Trim-to is 2.810". So anything between 2.810" and2.825" doesn't require trimming.) every one or two loadings the chamber is too long. Not a highly likely thing to happen though.
"...find yourself needing to trim the necks every one or two loadings..." Your chamber isn't right. Cases normally stretch the most on their first firing. If they stretch past the max case length given in your manual(2.825" -.012 for your Weatherby. That's 2.285" is max with a 12 thou less tolerance. Trim-to is 2.810". So anything between 2.810" and2.825" doesn't require trimming.) every one or two loadings the chamber is too long. Not a highly likely thing to happen though.
Actually, you want to anneal before you get split necks if you can. Some folks do it every time to try to improve start pressure consistency, but the majority do not. If you know from past experience that you start to see split necks after about X reloading cycles, then anneal at X-1 or X-2 cycles so you don't have to lose a case to learn that you need to anneal.
Belted magnum cases can grow a lot because they are designed to headspace on the belt correctly without having the case shoulder meet the chamber shoulder. They design the case shoulder-to-head dimension so it will miss making that contact even in the unlikely event you have chamber with maximum headspace but minimum breech face-to-shoulder length. This means that in a normal chamber, the shoulder fit is pretty loose. That means the shoulder expands forward a lot during firing and needs to be formed back during resizing, and if you resize the shoulder all the way back to new cartridge dimension, that flows a lot of brass into the neck, causing growth that is greater than you see on a non-belted, rimless bottleneck case.
However, because that growth occurs during resizing, if you just don't size it all the way back, but rather just enough to move the shoulder back a couple of thousandths from the length it extracts from the chamber with, you will reduce growth and make the whole thing last longer. The only problem I am aware of arising from this practice is the sizing die may not then go back far enough to adequately narrow the brass just in front of the belt, which can lead to tight chambering. If you encounter that, Larry Willis makes a resizing collet that will squeeze the brass diameter in front of the belt down. You will have to see if you need that for long brass life or not. It will vary with how warm you load your cartridges.
Belted magnum cases can grow a lot because they are designed to headspace on the belt correctly without having the case shoulder meet the chamber shoulder. They design the case shoulder-to-head dimension so it will miss making that contact even in the unlikely event you have chamber with maximum headspace but minimum breech face-to-shoulder length. This means that in a normal chamber, the shoulder fit is pretty loose. That means the shoulder expands forward a lot during firing and needs to be formed back during resizing, and if you resize the shoulder all the way back to new cartridge dimension, that flows a lot of brass into the neck, causing growth that is greater than you see on a non-belted, rimless bottleneck case.
However, because that growth occurs during resizing, if you just don't size it all the way back, but rather just enough to move the shoulder back a couple of thousandths from the length it extracts from the chamber with, you will reduce growth and make the whole thing last longer. The only problem I am aware of arising from this practice is the sizing die may not then go back far enough to adequately narrow the brass just in front of the belt, which can lead to tight chambering. If you encounter that, Larry Willis makes a resizing collet that will squeeze the brass diameter in front of the belt down. You will have to see if you need that for long brass life or not. It will vary with how warm you load your cartridges.
603Country
New member
A friend loads for 300 Wby and sizes it to headspace on the shoulder. Even sizing like that, he only got 3 reloadings before the necks started splitting. I wasn’t expecting such a short case life.
I should mention that there was no problem with chambering. He uses Lee Dies.
I should mention that there was no problem with chambering. He uses Lee Dies.
Trimming? There you have it, everything you ever wanted to know about trimming; and then there is that thing about life that is unfair. I have a 30/06 that has a long chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. If I chamber a full length sized/minimum length round into that chamber I have .016" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber.
What happens to the case when I pull the trigger? We should all know but we don't.
F. Guffey
What happens to the case when I pull the trigger? We should all know but we don't.
F. Guffey
SmokeyBravo307
New member
Thank you everyone I'm pretty new to reloading and really appreciate all the information I'll have to let you guys know how it goes!!!!
You have fallen into the harsh world of extended reloading.
It wasn't until I started reloading for target shooting where I was cycling the same brass through and maybe about 10-12 times with my calibers and began to see that.
There is some good annealing threads so do a search.
Easiest is to buy new (or once fired brass). Correct annealing is not done easily, even with what should be a more precision based induction annealer.
One thing to keep in mind, if you go onto doing annealing, if anyone tells you to heat it till it glows read, or just turns orange, run like the blazes.
As long as you don't heat up the base, you may not have optimal brass annealing , but it will be safe.
You have to figure out how much you shoot and if its wroth going to the dark side of annealing or buy replacement brass. Not brass you will be able to pick up and I doubt even once fired is available.
I would suggest a close look at a Gerard Tri Trimmer for the trimming.
It wasn't until I started reloading for target shooting where I was cycling the same brass through and maybe about 10-12 times with my calibers and began to see that.
There is some good annealing threads so do a search.
Easiest is to buy new (or once fired brass). Correct annealing is not done easily, even with what should be a more precision based induction annealer.
One thing to keep in mind, if you go onto doing annealing, if anyone tells you to heat it till it glows read, or just turns orange, run like the blazes.
As long as you don't heat up the base, you may not have optimal brass annealing , but it will be safe.
You have to figure out how much you shoot and if its wroth going to the dark side of annealing or buy replacement brass. Not brass you will be able to pick up and I doubt even once fired is available.
I would suggest a close look at a Gerard Tri Trimmer for the trimming.
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totalloser
New member
Flames are very unforgiving of error. I use glass blast media in a lead melter to anneal. Just dip a few in at a time.
totalloser
New member
Blast media (bead media), not sand. Sand will work, but not anywhere near as smoothly.
How is the temperature control? VERY forgiving. I pillaged this from the internet. It works *very* well for my process. I have to anneal because my brass is almost exclusively MG fired brass. Very oversized from loose MG chamber, and work hardened. It won't size without annealing. Some just spring back too long and refuse to stay sized.
It takes a while to get the media to the right temp and then I turn it down. Once at the right temp, I drop 3 in, then grab 3 more. By the time the second 3 are in place the first 3 are ready to pull, and the heat hasn't got down the case yet. Very very fast process. And also very simple.
My experience with annealing is minimal, so I am deliberately avoiding some of the details, but the process IMO is FAR superior to flame processes.
How is the temperature control? VERY forgiving. I pillaged this from the internet. It works *very* well for my process. I have to anneal because my brass is almost exclusively MG fired brass. Very oversized from loose MG chamber, and work hardened. It won't size without annealing. Some just spring back too long and refuse to stay sized.
It takes a while to get the media to the right temp and then I turn it down. Once at the right temp, I drop 3 in, then grab 3 more. By the time the second 3 are in place the first 3 are ready to pull, and the heat hasn't got down the case yet. Very very fast process. And also very simple.
My experience with annealing is minimal, so I am deliberately avoiding some of the details, but the process IMO is FAR superior to flame processes.
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JeepHammer
Moderator
For the 'Noobie'...
It's easier to start off with gas torch, but I recommend an 'Open' or 'Fan' tip.
The oxygen engorged 'Jet' tips can overheat the brass in half a heart beat.
There are three basic stages to annealing, basic annealing is VERY easy.
The first is stress relief.
Chrystals break up when worked, become disconnected starting cracks, and the slivers are sharp so they wedge chrystals apart.
Smaller 'Dust' collects in the spaces, this is the beginning of the end.
The first stage moves grains around through heat expansion & contraction, making stuff move around a little & settle in.
The second stage is allowing the chrystals to re-absorb the slivers & dust.
Cartridge brass annealing starts around 450*F.
Somewhere around 680*-730*F will start recombination.
Around 750*-800*F you will get grain growth, depending on the time the brass is exposed to heat.
This is where it gets tricky!
You CAN leave it on the heat too long, or you can overheat and go 'Dead Soft'.
The chrystals absorb each other, getting way too big and too soft.
The ONLY way to determine EXACT recombination is with micro-optical inspection, which is a HUGE pain in the butt.
For all intents & purposes, run the brass up to 700*-750*F, WITHOUT OVERHEATING and you will reap 85-90% of the benefits of annealing.
Make SURE your torch isn't overheating the outside while trying to get the inside up to temprature.
Cooler flame will allow you more breathing room, why a 'Jet' torch isn't recommended by me.
It's easier to start off with gas torch, but I recommend an 'Open' or 'Fan' tip.
The oxygen engorged 'Jet' tips can overheat the brass in half a heart beat.
There are three basic stages to annealing, basic annealing is VERY easy.
The first is stress relief.
Chrystals break up when worked, become disconnected starting cracks, and the slivers are sharp so they wedge chrystals apart.
Smaller 'Dust' collects in the spaces, this is the beginning of the end.
The first stage moves grains around through heat expansion & contraction, making stuff move around a little & settle in.
The second stage is allowing the chrystals to re-absorb the slivers & dust.
Cartridge brass annealing starts around 450*F.
Somewhere around 680*-730*F will start recombination.
Around 750*-800*F you will get grain growth, depending on the time the brass is exposed to heat.
This is where it gets tricky!
You CAN leave it on the heat too long, or you can overheat and go 'Dead Soft'.
The chrystals absorb each other, getting way too big and too soft.
The ONLY way to determine EXACT recombination is with micro-optical inspection, which is a HUGE pain in the butt.
For all intents & purposes, run the brass up to 700*-750*F, WITHOUT OVERHEATING and you will reap 85-90% of the benefits of annealing.
Make SURE your torch isn't overheating the outside while trying to get the inside up to temprature.
Cooler flame will allow you more breathing room, why a 'Jet' torch isn't recommended by me.
My experience with annealing is minimal, so I am deliberately avoiding some of the details, but the process IMO is FAR superior to flame processes.
Are you sticking the neck and shoulder in or a full immersion of the Brass?
Doing the whole case or even getting too far up it would have dire consequences.
What are you using to check temperature?
totalloser
New member
Propane flames run to 3500F depending on point contact of the flame. I try to set my glass bath somewhere below 800F. I'm not sure if this is the ideal range, but it works well for me- I move quickly at this temperature.
I am by no means an expert, but I have successfully used both processes. I have no intention of *ever* flame annealing cases again. It can be done, but it is, as you said, tricky. Occasional burned fingers aside, the glass bead method is not anywhere *near* as tricky. And it's really fast in batches- even compared to automated flame annealers. Thousands per hour fast. And no open flame to worry about.
When I ran across this process, I was considering manufacturing a new automated flame annealer. I scrapped the whole concept after trying this.
Drawbacks? You have to buy some stuff, wait for warm-up, and will burn yourself on the pot if not careful.
I am by no means an expert, but I have successfully used both processes. I have no intention of *ever* flame annealing cases again. It can be done, but it is, as you said, tricky. Occasional burned fingers aside, the glass bead method is not anywhere *near* as tricky. And it's really fast in batches- even compared to automated flame annealers. Thousands per hour fast. And no open flame to worry about.
When I ran across this process, I was considering manufacturing a new automated flame annealer. I scrapped the whole concept after trying this.
Drawbacks? You have to buy some stuff, wait for warm-up, and will burn yourself on the pot if not careful.
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totalloser
New member
OMG! Neck and shoulder only! I should have been more clear, sorry!
It is required by the media that it extends a little so they stand up while you place the next batch, but only a little bit. So far it looks to me that the cool brass above protects this transitional section that makes contact.
But I also am imparting some work hardening back in since I size after annealing.
IIRC (it's been months since I did a batch) I am using a product called "tempilstik". But though this process is pretty slick, I haven't run it long enough to work out best processes. I think it's superior and works for me, but I haven't played long enough to play guru on the concept. I am merely a copycat of a pioneer process at this point.
Almost all conventional knowledge still applies as far as I can tell.
It is required by the media that it extends a little so they stand up while you place the next batch, but only a little bit. So far it looks to me that the cool brass above protects this transitional section that makes contact.
But I also am imparting some work hardening back in since I size after annealing.
IIRC (it's been months since I did a batch) I am using a product called "tempilstik". But though this process is pretty slick, I haven't run it long enough to work out best processes. I think it's superior and works for me, but I haven't played long enough to play guru on the concept. I am merely a copycat of a pioneer process at this point.
Almost all conventional knowledge still applies as far as I can tell.
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OMG! Neck and shoulder only! I should have been more clear, sorry!
Near gave me a heart attack, I am a bit too old for serious shocks (grin)
Trying to stay calm etc.
If you are at 800 degrees, the time factor is very short, JH or Unclenick, its a temp if left more than ( fractions?) of a second goes too far.
As long as the base does not heat up its not the end of the world, you wind up with less than ideal brass that is soft and can not get back once it is (and I am also not an expert, this is feedback from those who are)
While I use induction, I go for over 650 but under 750 and just anneal every 3 to 5 cycles.
I keep a close eye on it all and a regular check for any glow at all (I can darken the room or do checks after dark) - you should be able to polish off the discoloration (mine is pretty miner) if not its gone too far.
I ran a torch originally and went too far. It shot ok so that gets into how to really tell and as JH put it, you really need the test tools to be 100%.
We do the best we can without that. Somewhat (grin) un-afordable for me.
Thank you everyone I'm pretty new to reloading and really appreciate all the information I'll have to let you guys know how it goes!!!!
It may slow down but the learning never ends from what I can tell. I din't figure any of this out for myself though I have come up with my own methods of quality control (or so I think) for my process.
A while back I needed to trim and my cordless was kaput on batteries, so I looked at my corded drill Milwauke (1/2 inch chuck, big, heavy has last for 40 years!) Ok, this is not going to be fun.
So then I flipped into thinking mode, ok, when I need to power sand something small with the belt sander I put it in the vice, lock the speed on and away I go. So, why can't I put a drill in the vice?
Whalla! I could have done with the cordless but its not one I do that with, so the thought process never went there.
Now I have a powered fixed base (for all practical purposes) trimmer that works as good as the Gerrad Powered unit. All at no extra cost (and I paid all of $125 for that drill all those years ago and I sure have gotten more than my use out of it and its going to be going after I am gone)
Necessity being the mother of invention says volumes. I could do by holding the drill before and no " real necessity ". This is so much better I kick myself (my hands are a bit arthritic and the thumb use hurts a bit to a lot and its amazing how much those come into play, thumbs are not over rated!) Other fingers you can do without, thumb, nope.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Totalloser, you have hit on the 'Heated Die' way of annealing, and temprature is probably the most precisely controlled this way.
Your die is flexible for maximum contact.
I built a heated die out of case gauge (cut to length) electrical resistance element and current control to keep the tempratures reasonable.
The biggest issue was getting the brass back out of a fitted die, you have solved this issue.
The fitted die was to distribute heat evenly, oversize dies didn't do that, fitted dies like to snag the epanded brass.
My attempted 'Fix' was an electrical solenoid on a timer, but by the time I got enough torque to kick out the most stubborn brass, I was kicking them across the room!
If your annealing line is just below, to 1/4 below the shoulder, you are about right since thermal sheer line will be a little further down the case then the annealing line will be.
Sounds slow, but virtually fool proof! Mess with time a little and you are done.
The MUCH lower temp (why I recommend LOW gas flame) gives you a crap ton of leeway in timing.
For a guy shooting a 'Boomer' that isn't going to waste 300-400 rounds at a time, sounds almost perfect.
The Lee lead pots are cheap enough, and the glass/ceramic media is dirt cheap, the finer the better in this application.
A thermometer/pyrometer to check temp with and you are off to the races!
Your die is flexible for maximum contact.
I built a heated die out of case gauge (cut to length) electrical resistance element and current control to keep the tempratures reasonable.
The biggest issue was getting the brass back out of a fitted die, you have solved this issue.
The fitted die was to distribute heat evenly, oversize dies didn't do that, fitted dies like to snag the epanded brass.
My attempted 'Fix' was an electrical solenoid on a timer, but by the time I got enough torque to kick out the most stubborn brass, I was kicking them across the room!
If your annealing line is just below, to 1/4 below the shoulder, you are about right since thermal sheer line will be a little further down the case then the annealing line will be.
Sounds slow, but virtually fool proof! Mess with time a little and you are done.
The MUCH lower temp (why I recommend LOW gas flame) gives you a crap ton of leeway in timing.
For a guy shooting a 'Boomer' that isn't going to waste 300-400 rounds at a time, sounds almost perfect.
The Lee lead pots are cheap enough, and the glass/ceramic media is dirt cheap, the finer the better in this application.
A thermometer/pyrometer to check temp with and you are off to the races!