and we paid twice, maybe three times, and for what??

A

alan

New member
A hangover from the Clinton era requires the military to DESTROY fired cartridge cases, that is render them unsuitable for reloading, as opposed to selling them on the civilian market in the U.S., as was formerly the case.

This destruction is accomplished by mechanical shredding or heating to spoil the temper of the brass, turning a relatively HIGH VALUE ITEM, a reloading component, into a LOWER VALUE ITEM, scrap metal. You guess where this scrap metal ends up.

As for costs, appropriated funds bought the ammnunition including the cartrtidge cases in the first instance. Secondly, via sales of cartridge cases, the government could recover at least part of that cost. Third, the machinery used to DESTROY the cartridge cases has to be acquired, operated and maintained, as I said, we are paying twice, maybe three times, and we are paying for an end result that makes no sense whatever.

If readers find this set of circumstances questionable, I respectfully suggest that they get in touch with their elected things, and now is better than later. For more details, see 20 May Gun Week, page 2, lower left hand part of that page.
 
The ammo the military used when I was in (25+ years ago) was Berdan primed. Unless I didn't get the memo, they still do.

De-priming spent military ammo it is a real pain without some sort of automated hydraulic de-capping machine. Personally I wouldn't give you more than the case's value in scrap weight even if they were available to the public.
You guess where this scrap metal ends up.
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My guess would be a smelter where it would be made into new cases for our military. That or doorknobs.

What's your guess?
 
Fred,
The US military has been using Boxer primed ammo at least since the mid 1950's which is when most of my surplus '06 was manufactured. The problem of using military brass was that the primers were crimped and it was a pain in the --s to remove the crimp and reprime the brass.

I bought a lifetime supply of 30-06 from Hitechammo.com and have been working on getting the crimps out with the little hand-tools, but it takes a while to do 10K cases!

I like the military brass for its thickness which a former gunsmith of mine told me would stand up to several more firings than commercial brass. Dillon sells a decrimping tool now that looks interesting. I plan on continuing using military brass until I'm too old to shoot anyway.

I know that the military contracts people like hitechammo.com to de-mill the ammo, and then they sell you the components. You just reassemble it all using your own primers.

While this is worthwhile if you shoot an M1 as do I, but if you're out busting 223 out of an AR, I would recommend only buying the 62 grain bullets and buying your own components.
 
We had Berdan .45 brass that was older than dirt. We didn't get any 30-06, so I didn't know about that.
have been working on getting the crimps out with the little hand-tools
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I've got one that attaches to my single stage press that swages the crimps back out. Pain in the ass.
but it takes a while to do 10K cases
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A lot more time than I'm willing to spend.
know that the military contracts people like hitechammo.com to de-mill the ammo, and then they sell you the components.
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We end up paying to de-mil stuff one way or the other, I guess it's to be expected with .gov anything.
 
We end up paying to de-mil stuff one way or the other, I guess it's to be expected with .gov anything.
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Fred we finally agree! The government does a lot of stupid things. As far as spending all that time on decrimping the brass- I have more time than I've got money, and at least I'm not selling crack on the corner while I'm decrimping all that old stuff! I find it almost theraputic kinda like shelling peas with Grandma on the porch when I was a kid. I find my "zone" and just start doing it and it takes my mind off of how fast we seem to be going to Hell in a handbasket! ;)
 
Fred Hansen and KJM:

Re U.S. military brass, I personally have fired and reloaded 30-06 brass headstamped in the mid 1950's, after the switch to non-corrosive primers, and I have yet to see U.S. made military rifle brass with Berdan Primers. Once I came upon a few pieces of 45 ACP, headstamped FA 1918, and it too was Boxer Primed.

As to the business of crimped primers, "ball ammunition" was crimped, Match Ammunition wasn't, from what I've seen. Removing the crimp took a little work, not all that much. Lyman used to make a hand held reamer, large and small size, that sold for possibly $5.00 a piece, likely less. Herters, if you remember them, sold a primer pocket swage tool, as did RCBS. I have each of the above mentioned, and I supect that just about anyone who made reloading tools offered either a pocket reamer or a swage tool of some kind. Dillon currently does one too.

As to the quality of military brass, I never had a problem with any of it, U.S. made that is. I found it long lived, even fired in an M-1 rifle, provided one did not set the shoulder back to far. In bolt rifles, the stuff lasted forever. I used to shoot at Quantico and Cherry Point, where one could pick up as much ONCE FIRED IN MATCH M-14'S, match brass as one wanted to carry home. Used that stuff for years. It was heavier walled than commercial, so what, one could use a bit less powder. Excellent stuff, really.

Departing this aspect of the discussion, consider the following, if you will. A poster on another site characterized the people who foisted off this destroy the brass business as "Bastards". That is an entirely apt observation, but who are the real bastards, those who came up with this regulation originally, or those now in power, who allow it to carry on, all the while they claim to be on our side, or if you will, Pro-Gun? Interesting point, isn't it?
 
US military ammo has been largely boxer primed since the introduction of centerfire ammunition into military service in the 1880s.

It was common practice right up through to the beginning of WW II for cases fired in training to be collected, send back to Frankford Arsenal, reloaded, and sent out again.

This practice is, in fact, how it was first discovered that mercuric primers caused brass cases to become brittle.

When the Army adopted the .30-40 Krag loaded with smokeless powder, they followed common practice and sent the cases back to Frankford. On the next firing, the Army reported a very large number of case failures, many times in excess of what was considered normal.

Through investigation it was discovered that mercury in the primers was the culprit. This had never shown up in the reloading of .45-70 cases, apparently because a) black powder pressures didn't drive the mercury as deeply into the brass as the higher pressure smokeless powder did, b) the black powder fouling served to dilute the mercury, and c) the cases were apparently washed fairly soon after shooting to remove the black powder (and mercury) residue.

By 1900, mercuric primers were largely on their way out of military useage in the United States.

I have an array of U.S. military centerfire ammo and cases, loaded at a variety of government plants. Year range is roughly 1885 to last year. Caliber range is .38 Long Colt, .38 Spl., .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30-40 Krag, .30-03 and .30-06 Springfield, 9mm, 7.62x51, and 5.56. None of the roughly two dozen or more examples are berdan primed.
 
Fascinating stuff Mike. Another interesting tidbit I heard but don't know of the veracity is that Berdan primers were invented by an American (soldier or marine) and the European powers use berdan priming almost exclusively, while Boxer primers were invented by an Englishman and the English never use them.

Also- is it true that the juice in a primer that makes it work was discovered by a Scottish Presbyterian minister?
 
Question

I dunno about any Scot preacher, but the Boxer- Berdan part is correct, it appears our English cousins are easily lead astray by a smooth talking American, while us natives know a bs artist when we see one.
Don :D
 
KJM,

Col. Hiram Berdan invented the priming system that bears his name. You may have heard of him -- he was the founder and leader of Berdan's Sharpshooters of Civil War fame.

Berdan was a prolific firearms and cartridge designer. His rifle and its 10.6x57.5mm cartridge was adopted by the Russians in 1868, while the Bulgarians in 1880 adopted his No. 2 rifle and 11.2x57mm cartridge.

About the same time that Berdan was creating his centerfire system (late 1860s), Col. Edward Boxer was designing his priming system, which he perfected around 1867.

Both the Boxer and Berdan systems saw use here in the United States with ammo companies, but eventually the Boxer system won out. I think it's largely due to the fact that many people here reloaded their ammo as opposed to Europeans.

Then there was also the fact that the US military reloaded brass expended in training, so the Boxer system made a LOT more sense.


And yes, the Rev. Alexander Forsyth pioneered (and patented) the use of mercuric fulminate as an ignition system. I know some people credit Forsyth with inventing the percussion cap, but that's not correct. Forsyth didn't make the temporal leap from using loose mercuric fulminate to enclosing it in a separate, sealed copper cap. The first patent for a percussion cap was taken out by Joshua Shaw of Philadelphia in 1814.

Here's a good primer on priming systems (get it? BBBBWHWHWWH!)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_199903/ai_n8850154#continue
 
Mike Irwin seems to have his history correct, as usual, from what I've seen of his posts.

I was not familiar with the calibers of cartridges "invented" by Col. Berdan, didn't know he was a designer/development type, thought that he was a Civil War Union Army Officer, who sort of "led the way" to sniper development/deployment at that time.

I believe that Boxer was, when he worked on primer development, a Captain. I guess he was promoted, which he likely deserved.

As I recall, Mr. Forsyth was a DENTIST by training and profession.

History remains interesting, thank you Mike.
 
Alexander Forsyth was, I believe, a Presybyterian minister in Scotland. I know he was a minister, was an avid hunter, and was sorely ticked at missing shots on game because his flintlock failed to ignite. I've never heard that he was a dentist. A biobrief published in American Rifleman magazine, and reprinted in the NRA Guide to Rifles and Shotguns (1993 edition) on page 267 makes no mention of him being a dentist, only a minister who was also an inveterate tinkerer.

Boxer probably was a captain when he was working on his priming system -- most sources simply credit him as a colonel, but he obviously wasn't a colonel his entire career.
 
Mike,
I would assume Presbyterian too being that Scotland is kinda full of those sorts of churches.

The McClellan Saddle is often credited to General George B. McClellan even though he was a Capt at the time too. Captain Robert Lee was on the staff that worked on it too.

When referring to a person's deeds in the military, you usually use the highest rank achieved unless context of rank is important. Kinda like a retired colonel is referred to as colonel for the rest of his life even if the best thing he did was as a 2nd Lt.
 
Who wants military brass?

If you want just a bit (or maybe a lot) check out:

www.gibrass.com

Jeff Bartlett makes his living by buying components from "pulled down" military ammo. He sells both fired and UNFIRED brass; latest news is that he has a quantity of match 7.62 and 30-06 brass.

He also sells .30 projectiles by the trainload--150 gr boattail for 7.62, 150 grain FB for .30-06 ball, 55 and 62 grain 5.56, and .50 BMG FMJ.

You also have the option of ordering your brass prepared--decapped, crimp removed, and polished--for about $10.00 more.

He also sells milsurp and NEW powders--the military canister grade, as well as new IMR 4895.

His service is impeccable, his prices are more than fair. I have had excellent luck with his product. Give his site a look!

And, you can by MILITARY Lake City 30-06 ammunition from:

www.odcmp.com.

Check it out!
 
every year huge amounts of smallarms ammunition are cycled off the shelves after some years in War Reserve. Some goes for training, some is sold, and most of it is scrapped. The market couldn't absorb even most of it, and if it tried prices would crash to the point where it wouldn't be economic to stock it.
 
Third, the machinery used to DESTROY the cartridge cases has to be acquired, operated and maintained, as I said, we are paying twice, maybe three times, and we are paying for an end result that makes no sense whatever.
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Most likely contracted. Wonder who the "lucky" contractors are; this is how public money often get's laundered.
 
Mk VII wrote:

"every year huge amounts of smallarms ammunition are cycled off the shelves after some years in War Reserve. Some goes for training, some is sold, and most of it is scrapped. The market couldn't absorb even most of it, and if it tried prices would crash to the point where it wouldn't be economic to stock it."

I wonder as to whether he is speaking to the situation in Great Britain or in the U.S., for the laws and general situations regarding the ownership and use of firearms by private citizens, or The Queens Subjects in the former case, are markedly different.

Many law abiding citizens in the U.S. own the civilian legal version (semi-automatic only) of the current service rifle, chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm round (.223 Remington in civilian garb). Also, former U.S. service rifle cartridges the 30-06 and the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round (.308 Winchester) have long been used in commercial sporting rifles, for hunting, competition and other lawful uses. Also, unlike in GB, a great many "surplus to needs" former service rifles have been sold to civilian shooters in this country, over many years. Such sales continue currently. The above factors give rise to a significant civilian market for military surplus ammunition and ammunition components. Many people in the US reload or handload their ammunition, a situation relatively uncommon in GB.

In any case, the destruction by the military, of fired cartridge cases is, as noted in my original post, a hangover from the Clinton Administration, certainly one of the most anti gun, anti gun rights administrations in the history of the U.S. While the Clinton administration is gone, the ridiculous restrictions that it foisted off on the law-abiding population of this country remain. Given the alleged orientation of the current administration, I find this situation more than passing strange.

Stranger yet is the following. All elected officials in the U.S. are sworn to "support, uphold and defend The Constitution". Obviously, those who push gun control, and or partake in anti gun activity or who support same are acting in a manner violative of their oath of office. Unfortunately, many fit into this category quite nicely, which obviously is a problem, but it seems that people everywhere have problems with the antics of their elected things.
 
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