And the problems begin... Load Development issues

K

KBrun

New member
Well, as some of you may know, I recently started reloading. I loaded up 50 round, with 5 of each load in .5 grain increments. I used IMR 4895, federal brass, cci primers, and Sierra 165 grain game king bullets. Starting load was 38.0 grains, ending load was 42.5 grains. I also reloaded some in Winchester brass, with 39.5 grains of powder. The plan was to use these for rough sighting in since I'd previously been shooting 150 grain bullets.
I started by shooting 3 of the Winchester brass loads, with zero issues. Got it dialed in pretty close in 4 or 5 shots, and was ready to start with the federal brass. This is where the problems began. My first shot was very high, off the target high. I thought I may have pulled it so I continued, with the second shot also being way high. I could not for the life of me get the shots on the target. I ended up adjusting 50 clicks down, and still not on target. I am planning on going back out later with a spotter, but any ideas what I may be doing to cause this?
Also, interestingly enough I shot a Tulammo 150 grain round, and the first shot I had trouble opening the bolt. The primer was backed out, which I took to mean over pressure, correct? This shouldn't happen on factory ammo should it?
 
IMO steel cases can present all kinds of issues that appear as one thing but really are just do to the steel cases . I don't shoot steel cased ammo for that reason .

Backed out primers are sign of low pressure . There was not enough pressure to seal the chamber and stretch the case back to the bolt face leaving a gap between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge . That space was then filled by the primer by backing out do to the pressure in the case pushing it out back through the flash hole .

A primer that does not remain in the primer pocket do to the pocket streching is a sign of over pressure . If the primer is just backed out a bit and still firmly in place . I'd say low pressure sign .

50 clicks with no luck after sighting it in sounds like one of two things . You went the wrong way or an optic or mount problem .
 
Sympathetic to your plight.

I'm experiencing something along the same lines as KBRUN.

I have a scoped Vz-24 Czech Mauser in 8x57 that I CANNOT get to group (well, and on the target). The factory PPU stuff w/196 grain pills shot off-paper and loosely. FINALLY got it ON paper, but no groups to write home about.

I switched to an orphan stripper clip full of Turkish surplus (150gr.). All 5 rounds went high and left, in a pattern I coulda covered with a tea cup. I'll return to the range w/some judiciously concocted handloads (from the PPU brass & 175 gr. Sierra flatbase spitzers) to try again, but the whole business had some far more knowledgeable minds than mine scratching their heads, at the range.

If someone solves KBRUN's problem, it'll probably help with mine.
 
Point of impact (POI) shifts are very common when shooting completely different ammo from the last ammo shot . The OP may see some shift during load development but not much do to all the components being the same , maybe 1 inch or so . I have seen POI shifts in my own loads when switching from one completely different load to the next ( different powder , bullet , case ) of 2 to 3 inches . I in fact have doped my rifle for each load I have . There usually is not that much POI shift . I'll have my rifle zeroed for my best load then note how many clicks on the scope my other loads differ from my primary load . It's never much maybe a click or two up or down , left or right . So 50 clicks tells me there is something not right .
 
Metal god said:
Point of impact (POI) shifts are very common when shooting completely different ammo from the last ammo shot . The OP may see some shift during load development but not much do to all the components being the same , maybe 1 inch or so . I have seen POI shifts in my own loads when switching from one completely different load to the next ( different powder , bullet , case ) of 2 to 3 inches . I in fact have doped my rifle for each load I have . There usually is not that much POI shift . I'll have my rifle zeroed for my best load then note how many clicks on the scope my other loads differ from my primary load . It's never much maybe a click or two up or down , left or right . So 50 clicks tells me there is something not right .
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We have a magnetic bore sighter, I know it's not the best method but it usually gets us on paper. After looking through that, it appears that my scope is actually running out of adjustment. I noticed this when trying to adjust my poi left, but chalked that up to the light wind that was blowing. I wonder if for some reason my scope wasn't actually adjusting at all, I was just turning a knob.
 
I have a laser bore sight and found that it works if indexed correctly . A 1/4 turn left or right and it's way off . I have now went to manually bore sighting my bolt action rifles , really any firearm I can look down the bore .

Pull the bolt completely out of the action . Then set the rifle on a firm surface supporting the for-end and the butt stock . Now set a 8" -ish round target at 50yds . Then look thru the action down through the barrel and center that round target in the bore . SLOWLY with out moving the gun look up through the scope . If the cross hairs are not on the target adjust the scope until it is . The fact you are just holding the rifle there . You will likely need to go back and forth a few times from looking down the bore and back up to the scope . Adjusting the scope a little each time . I've gotten pretty good doing it that way and often only need minor adjustments to do the final adjustments when firing the firearm .

Also , since you have been turning the turrets a lot . You may want to return the turrets to there mechanical zero . Turn the turret all the way down until it just stops ( don't force it down ) . Then back it all the way out until it stops counting the total revolutions and clicks . OK lets say that total was 2 full revolutions + 20 clicks . You then 1/2 that number turning back down the turret 1 full revolution + 10 clicks . Do this with both elevation and windage . This should place your reticle in the center of the scope tube giving a mechanical zero .
 
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How big were your targets? For sighting in and load development I always the my biggest target stand, 30"X25", at 100 yards to ensure I don't have happen to me what happened to you. I too learned by doing exactly the way you have.

For bore sighting I do own a older Bushnell bore sighter but with bolt action rifles I find it easier and quicker to do what Metal God described.
 
I had approximately a 5 foot by 3 foot piece of cardboard with individual pieces of paper stapled on. I was shooting at the top half to begin. Unfortunately I won't be able to shoot again this weekend, but I do believe I may have a good start. I used the method described above to get it sighted, so I should have a good place to jump off from. Thanks for the help, and I'll be sure to keep the updates coming.
 
One small thing; I didn't see mention of the caliber of your reloads. I'm guessing from the load of IMR4895 and 150 gr. and 165 gr. bullet you are shooting a 308 Win. or a 30-06 Springfield. What load did you "get it dialed in" with? POI can vary greatly in elevation with different bullet weights and charges/pressures...

How far was the target? Normally, after bore sighting (there's a bunch of methods) I'll run a few at 25 yards just to see how close I am on windage knowing elevation will be off, and tweeking the scope at 100...
 
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mikld said:
One small thing; I didn't see mention of the caliber of your reloads. I'm guessing from the load of IMR4895 and 150 gr. and 165 gr. bullet you are shooting a 308 Win. or a 30-06 Springfield. What load did you "get it dialed in" with? POI can vary greatly in elevation with different bullet weights and charges/pressures...
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My apologies... This is a. 308. I used the exact same bullet as the reloads, (165 grain sierra) with 39.5 grains of powder. The only difference was Winchester brass rather then federal brass.
 
I had a 30-30 that would not stay on target. Turned out to be the cross hairs were loose in the scope. Found it buy sighting it in and leaveing it on the rest and tapped on the scope with a lighter.
 
If your developing loads you need to make sure the tool of use is functioning correctly. I'd buy a box of factory loaded 150 grain Sako or something similar. Test the rifle on a good brand of factory ammo or your just peeing into the wind. You seem to be experiencing issues a lot with pressure, have you checked your head space with a gauge ?

Jamie
 
In fact I'd say you need your rifle possibly checked with a gun smith. Your not getting accuracy, your getting stiff bolt with factory ammo, blown primers etc. I'd be suspect of something wrong with the rifle. Everything is screaming pressure even with a factory round. The only thing I'd possibly check is when was the last time you cleaned the rifling and lands etc thoughrally with copper solvent remover. You can get stiff bolt from a gunked up chamber
Jamie
 
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You can get stiff bolt from a gunked up chamber
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I agree and IMO that is more likely to happen the more you shoot steel cased ammo out of it . Low pressured steel cases will not seal the chamber all the time . This can result in carbon and other fouling being blown back into the chamber . It then gets heated and smashed against the chamber walls each additional round fired all the while some of those cases are getting blow back compounding the problem .

"MAN" ! im just a ray of sunshine ain't I :D
 
kbrun, what distance were you shooting at?

Also, to make sure we have an understanding of the events, is the following correct?

- You were shooting at smaller targets affixed to a 5 foot by 3 foot piece of cardboard
- You first shot 39.5gr loads in Winchester brass and had good results. What does good results mean here? Small groups close to where you were aiming?
- Then you switched to the federal brass loads and your shots were going way high.

What was the powder charge that you started out with when you switched to the federal brass? Also 39.5 or some other charge?

How did you determine that the shots from the federal brass were high if they were not on the target? Or were they on the 5x3 cardboard, just high from the point of impact from the Winchester brass load?

It is hard to understand from your description what the exact events were.

Also, what kind of scope are you using and what are the turret adjustments (1/8 MOA, 1/4 MOA, 1/10 mil?)?
 
Let's start with the basics here...

First, in post #12, you say all cases were brass. Is that correct?

Second, IME....and I'm not sure why...sometimes between min and max POI changes more than 1 target. So, I would put up a butcher or newspaper backer. Then put up targets that are as tall as you can buy.

Another option is moving round 1 of development to 50 yards.

If your scope concerns you put it on another known good rifle and test it. Shoot a shot, adjust up 4", shoot again, right 4", shoot again, down 4", shoot again, left 4", shoot again... The first and last round should be within the rifle's std group size. The other 3 should form a box.
 
overthere said:
kbrun, what distance were you shooting at?
I was shooting at 100 yards

Also, to make sure we have an understanding of the events, is the following correct?

- You were shooting at smaller targets affixed to a 5 foot by 3 foot piece of cardboard

That is correct, with each target being an 8.5x11 piece of paper, stapled to the cardboard.
- You first shot 39.5gr loads in Winchester brass and had good results. What does good results mean here? Small groups close to where you were aiming?

I was getting probably a 2" group or so, nothing exceptional but on paper bear the center of the target I was aiming at.
- Then you switched to the federal brass loads and your shots were going way high.

What was the powder charge that you started out with when you switched to the federal brass? Also 39.5 or some other charge?

Initial shot was 38.0 grains, working up to 42.5 in. 5 grain increments. Thus ia what makes me wonder if it was something with scope/rifle

How did you determine that the shots from the federal brass were high if they were not on the target? Or were they on the 5x3 cardboard, just high from the point of impact from the Winchester brass load?
I was seeing puffs of dirt on the bank behind the target. I didn't have a spotter, so actual poi was tough to determine.

It is hard to understand from your description what the exact events were.

Also, what kind of scope are you using and what are the turret adjustments (1/8 MOA, 1/4 MOA, 1/10 mil?)?
Click to expand...

I'm using a Vortex Diamondback 4-12x40, with 1/4 MOA adjustments. Hopefully thus clears up what was happening a little bit.
 
Scottish Highlander said:
If your developing loads you need to make sure the tool of use is functioning correctly. I'd buy a box of factory loaded 150 grain Sako or something similar. Test the rifle on a good brand of factory ammo or your just peeing into the wind. You seem to be experiencing issues a lot with pressure, have you checked your head space with a gauge ?

Jamie
Click to expand...

I have not checked headspace. I have some federal factory stuff on hand, next time out I will plan on using it to get me sighted in, check scope function etc. If scope shows issues I may mount it on dads rifle and see what it does.

Metal god said:
I agree and IMO that is more likely to happen the more you shoot steel cased ammo out of it . Low pressured steel cases will not seal the chamber all the time . This can result in carbon and other fouling being blown back into the chamber . It then gets heated and smashed against the chamber walls each additional round fired all the while some of those cases are getting blow back compounding the problem .

"MAN" ! im just a ray of sunshine ain't I :D
Click to expand...

I have not spent excessive time cleaning the chamber. I've probably shot approximately 100-150 rounds through this gun, and cleaned the barrel after each session. About 30 shots have been the steel cased stuff. I will be sure to make sure the chamber is clean before the next outing.
Id rather you be brutally honest then beat around the Bush with niceties! Thanks for all the help so far.
 
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