Ancient Belgian shotgun - dating, loads, etc.

D

DutchmanDick

Inactive
Hi, all. I have an old Belgian SxS shotgun I'm trying to find out more about. It is a side-lever opening gun, with half-cocking (not rebounding) backaction locks. The markings on the underside of the barrel are: the Belgian definitive blackpowder proof WITHOUT a crown over the oval/ELG/* (which from what I have found for info, places it at 1893 or older); a tower-looking thing; a * over a letter X; a * over a letter s; two provisional proofmarks (looks sort of like a stylized backwards E); the number 18.0 (I think this is the bore size in millimeters. 12-gauge, I think? Measures .720" at the muzzles); a badly stamped mark that could be FDE, EDE, FDF, or EDF; the right barrel has the number 22566 and the left barrel is stamped 1947 on their undersides; and the under-rib is stamped 81 and CR. The top rib says "STEEL BARRELS". Barrels are 30" long and cylinder bored on both sides. The stock is straight-wristed, with no pistol grip. The buttplate, which appears to be original, is just a thick piece of leather nailed onto the stock.

First question: Just how old is it? I know, based on the style of the blackpowder proof mark, that it can't be newer than 1893, but can that be narrowed down?

It was obviously a cheap gun when new. The action was loose and sloppy when I got it (I've tightened it up and made repairs so it locks up good and solid again). The barrels, though somewhat pitted inside, seem to be sound enough. There was evidence that it might have been fired with a hot smokeless shell at one time, as the solder holding the locking lug onto the barrel was cracked, and the locking bolt was slightly bent upwards. Repairing these two things allowed the gun to lock up properly again. There was ZERO finish left on the gun, and a lot of surface rust to clean off. I'm guessing that, even in its now mechanically functional, repaired state, that it has no collector value. This leads to questions two and three:

Question 2: loads. The gun was proofed for blackpowder. Would it be OK to shoot some of the Winchester ultra-lightweight target loads in this gun, or should I stick to loading shells with blackpowder or a substitute? Anybody load any of the Magtech brass shells, and if so, with what load combo? I think that by buying some of the Magtech brass hulls, I can instantly tell what loads are for this gun.

Question 3: To cut, or not to cut? I want to use this gun for CAS, but the 30" barrels are somewhat ungainly. Would it hurt to have them professionally cut down to 20"? I won't be losing any choke, as it's already a cylinder bore. I assume there's no collector value to the gun, but am I right or wrong on this? And would I lose too much velocity to use it on reactive targets? I know that with blackpowder, a longer barrel generally means better performance.

Anyway, any input would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
I can't help much on the age and I am not a gunsmith to comment on strength but just to discuss...

1. Only thing I could see in the proofmarks is that *X and *s are inspectors' marks and the star replaced a crown over the letter in 1877. I have a pre '93 no-name Belgian boxlock with steel barrels and similar markings.

Strength and quality. Sounds like you tightened up some appreciable wear and damage on what I agree is a cheap gun. Do you trust your workmanship? What is the chamber length? Probably 65mm - 2 9/16", short for modern shells.

2. Light target loads are not necessarily low pressure loads, they might be using small charges of fast burning powder to save money and to run pressure up to where they will function gas operated autos. There are low pressure smokeless loads in some obscure sources. There are some CASers using brass shells and black or fake powders. You can likely find mention on the SASS Wire at
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12
Of course 99% of the buckaroos and most other contacts will tell you not to shoot the gun at all, old = dangerous and you need a Communist Chinese copy of something or another.

3. I think the value is nil. Hacksaw away. If it cuts the velocity a little, I wouldn't worry about it, the favorite CAS shotshell is the Winchester Low Noise, Low Recoil load known as the Featherlight which has a muzzle velocity of 980 fps.
 
think you got the proofmark age right...as to how much older than 1893, that's anyone's guess. Most were marked with some company's name...any company willing to pay to have "Uncle joe's hardware Shop", "Drop'em'Dead" (or whatever they wanted) on the barrel, which usually give a clue to when and where it was sold. Sears sold a pile of them in the late 1800's, and most of those were NOT marked other tahn belgium proofs.

LITE loads of black powder ONLY after (1) a complete barrel inspection and (2) test firing remotely. Smokeless would be off the list so far as I am concerned, heavy loads of BP are also off the list.

Have reworked two guns like this...both belgium, both from the 1870-1893 period. One damascus and one "decarbonized steel". Bothe locked up tight and true, and both had their barrels cut to 22" (length depends on height...I like to be able to hold it by the wrist, hang my arm down, and have the muzzles a few inches above the dirt...can't find a reason to go any shorter). IF there is a choke, you lose it.

Becasue I'm recommending lite loads, will generally trim plastic hulls to 2 1/2" length...genral load is 60gr. Fg , over powder wad, 1/2" felt wad, 1oz of shot, over shot wad, and a ROLL crimp. Federal still makes paper hulls, and if you've the urge to be authentic, can use them.

The Cheap brass shells will get basically the same load, but will adjust the fiber wads to get the height to work out right. Know pusing more wadding doen barrel raises pressure a little bit, but proably make a lot of that up by the use of pistol primers in place of 209's.

SHOULD YOU? That's a hard one...no doubt about it, these old guns can let go and damage you and those around you....haven't had it happen, but do know that it COULD happen.

One other old gun...a nice E.James single 10ga. This is an undler lever/under bolt ( akind of screw lock)...way strong lock up, but a long thin damascus barrel. On this one, which checked out to be safe, would NOT CRIMP the case AT ALL. It's a single, so no fear of recoil dislodging the top wad. Without a crimp, would load the 10ga. shell as if it were a shart muzzle loading barrel..and not care if the load filled the entier case up or not....no crimp, just a little bead of Elmers glue to hold the overshot wad in place. Yep...no crimp reduced velocity...and reduced pressure...but that's about 70fps differnce and pretty meaningless.
 
Thanks!

I definitely trust my own workmanship: I am a machinist by trade. I have already built a big-bore (.45 cal.) airgun based on the Austrian Girandoni (see www.beemans.net for historical info), which packs as much punch as a small/medium power handgun. The air reservoir is also the butt of the gun, and is filled with around 1000 PSI of air pressure. This potential bomb is made from 14-gauge sheet steel, rolled, rivetted and brazed like the originals, and needless to say I had it hydro-tested professionally. I'd BETTER have done this right, as it's right next to my face when firing!:eek: :)

As to chamber length, it seems to be 2-3/4", at least that's what it comes out to when I put a machinist's steel scale down from the breech to the end of the chamber. When did the 2-3/4" chamber come out?

Also, when did side levers come out, and when did they finally die out?
 
Side levers are as old as beech loading shotguns. Underlifters, side levers, top leavers, screw thred bottom levers...and the various types of slideing breeches...aren't going to get a firm date based on that. Pre-1893 is about as good as you are going to get.


Get use to side levers pretty easily...no real slow down. Same with under lifters (and some of the old LC Smiths were pretty nice)...the rotary underlevers are slow, but you'll seldom find one that is loose...it not only locks the barrel, but pulls it down tight against the action table and is proably the strongest shotgun breech mechanisim.

Now oddly, the damascus barrels were prefered in the 1800's...the "steel" (fluid steel,,,decarbonized steel...etc.) were usually lower priced. Would take the word "steel" with a grain of salt..it's not quite the same concept as "steel" is today.

The proablem with a double is that you really never know for sure the condition of the barrel becasue of the top and bottom ribs. No way to get a visual on the full utside of the gun...if a pitt has eaten to within .001" of the bore UNDER a rib, you'd never know it from bore inspection or outside visual inspection.

SO EVEN ONE THAT HAS NO VISIBLE PITTING INSIDE OR OUT NEEDS TO BE TESTED CAREFULLY!!! Have seen a pin hole eroput on a percussion taht showed no sigen of rusting or pitting...but one f the damascas welds let go in a pin hole...gas jetting out snatches the fore end away and burned the devil out of the shooter's hand (was wearing leather gloves...which saved him from more serious problems).

On a guess, when you cut the barrels, should notice that what they joined the barrels with is NOT soft lead based soldier...will have a yellow tint to it and will have a much higher melting temp....a type of brazing was used. Actually, that's a pretty good trick for the 1800's.

Those non-rebounding hammers mean non retracting pins...so be sure your 1/4 cock notchs are working and remember to drag the hammers back to 1/4 cock before trying to close a loaded gun. Might notice to little "bite" cuts on the extractor, made so the action would clear the forward pins when opening.

Black powder...lite-loads...take it easy.

------
Long as I'm on a roll.

Fg works great, it's want Fg was made for. But it's not easy to find in some areas, so one of the substitutes gets used. Stay away from fast poweders in the FFFG range. FF gwill work, and you can find that...pyrodex RS is pretty common everywhere and does work, but has some corrosion concerns.

BP shotguns are FILTHY...even BP needs a certain amount of pressure to burn cleanly (ever look at the lumpy residue from buning a pile out in the open) and shotguns generally don't burn cleanly at all.

The Magtech brass cases work fine...but are thin and work best with 11ga. card and fiber wads. These cases have some special loading requirments....if you decide on using them, will post about that seperatly.


IF you just have to use plastic wads, will prbably find a good bit of plastic fouling along with the black powder fouling. For whatever reasons, BP tends to melt/erode the thin edges of the plastic and leave it a melted mess in the bore. Plastic shot cups WIHTOUT the cushion base work fine on top of a 1/2 " fiber wad (and that is on a card over powder wad).
 
WRT "cut or not to cut", may I suggest that you approach that decision like you would a haircut. You can always take more off but cannot put it back. Consider holding off until your absolutely certain as to what you have and it's value AS IS.
 
Well, I just ordered 50 of the Magtech brass shells from Midway. I'd like to load them the old fashioned way, with nitro card wads, fiber cushions, and cardboard overshot wads. For powder, I'd like to use Hogdon 777 simply because I can go down to Wal-Mart and get it easily. Some of the local shops carry FFG American Pioneer Powder, but it's an off-and-on sort of thing and if I special order it I have to pay hazmat shipping fees. Pyrodex is DEFINITELY an out, as I have had plenty of corrosion problems with it in the past. Haven't used it since Cleanshot came out.

Being as this will be my first time loading blackpowder shells, any help will be appreciated. Thanks!
 
OK.

First off, will see that they are more like old ballon headed rounds...the bottom of the case is NOT flat, but has a raised dome that forms the primer pocket. This is important when you PRIME them. IF you use a flat ended punch, will just beat the dome down and make the primer cut too shallow. Have to make a rod with a recess in the end to fit that raised dome. A length of shaped wooden dowel works.

May as well makes a deprimer as well. Need a short length of wooden dwol with a 1/16th inch pin set in the center of one end. Can just bore a hole in a wooden block (countersink it for the case hed helps) fror a depriming block. A bit of brass or other smooth flat metal can be used to help reprime (be VERY VERY VERY careful whn priming with a punch on a flat surface...slow push and light taps).

Second, will notice that even though they are made of baass, they are THIN and not any stronger than the paper or plastic shells. Can see the head stamp from the INSIDE of the case when you look down on the primer pocket. Do NOT think that these brass cases give any margin of safety over plastic.

They have more volume tahn their length would indicate...with thin walls and base, theyere is more room for the length taht any plastic or paper hull. This can be a help with max. loads, but I strongly recommend lite-loads.

They are about 11ga. on the inside. Plastic shot cups are a rattle fit...12ga. fiber wads or card wads are a loose fit. Needs to be 11ga., and tose can be bought from several BP dealers (Track of the Wolf is a good choice). Will need:
11ga. over powder wads
11ga. 1/2" fiber wads
11ga. over shot wads (but can substitute an over powder wad if you need to).

For shooting with a plastic shot cup, will usually buy the CHEAPEST...cut the collapsable base off...and use just the shot cup. This I will load on top of the 11ga. fiber wad (still with an 11ga. over powder wad under the fiber wad).

Have to try different things for a slight crimp....to hold the over shot wad in place so that shooting barrel #1 doesn't jhar the charge out of barrel #2. Glue has worked for me..a little bit of "Gorrila Glue" seems to do the trick (appled with a toothpick right along the joint between teh top wad and the brass case...and it tends to waterproof the round).

CLEAN YOUR CASES soon after they are fired...the residue left from BP or most of the substitutes is not only filthy, will tend to corrode the brass with a green crust that weakens the brass.
 
What sort of powder/shot charge would you recommend for CAS, and will 777 powder work OK? Or should I just stock up on American Pioneer when I can find it?

Also, I already have 12-gauge wads. Will they work at all, or are they pretty much useless? Hate to have to buy something else if these will work...

Thanks!
 
Agree...would not use 777 in the old gun.

12ga. wads might be a bit too loose...will have to see.

If too loose, round #1 is going to jar the guts out of round #2...which can mean a sepertion between powder and shot charge...which could act as an obstruction. In any tests, would certainly open the action and take a look-see for round #2...see if the wads have crept forward or that it suddely has a loose-shot-rattle that it dien't have before.

IF too loose, can aslo have some gas cutting issues as the pressure tries to sneak past the sides...will erode plastic wads and certainly blow the pattern with any type of wad.

Really would be best to invest the $ (less than $20) in the correct fitting wads.
 
Would 60 grains FFG APP (by volume) with an equal volume of shot, with filler wads to build up the proper column depth, be a good load?

Also (asked this earlier), anybody know when 2-3/4" 12 gauge chambers came out? I know some REALLY old guns had 2-1/2 or 2-9/16" chambers, but this old gun has 2-3/4" chambers. I already know it can't be NEWER than 1893, by the proofmarks, but knowing when 2-3/4" chambers came out would help me set a "no-older-than" date. Mainly for my own curiosity.
 
Can't tell abut chamber lengths...many older guns were not all that exact in length, and may have hit 2 3/4 when trying for 2 9/16....seems like they'd have noticed 3/16ths, but have seen enough long chambered old guns to not doubt it happened.

60gr. and proably 3/4" of fiber wad ( a 1/2" one and 1/2 of another one..they split easily with a razor blade) then adjsut...might end up with 65gr. or something close to that.

Woould be a good place to start...perhaps a good place to stop if the gun patterns well.
 
I wonder if this gun could have had the chambers and bores rebored. The 18.0 stamped on the underside of the barrel would indicate the bore size, but that would equal 13 gauge (12 gauge is 18.2 millimeters). How likely is it that it could have been rebored for a more common shell size? There is no forcing cone; the chambers end in a sharp shoulder exactly 2-3/4" from the breech, and the bores at the muzzles measure .720" (exactly 12 gauge, and more than 18.0 mm).
 
Be nice to have the chamber diameter. Some of the old guns were cut specificaly for brass cases...some for paper.

Most of the old guns don't have the soft gentle forcing cone we use today...were some (usually for brass cases) that were cut so that the bore was pretty much the same as the inside of the brass case...making for a smooth even hole from primer to muzzle on the inside.

The paper chambers were usualy cut larger (paper tends to swell a bit from humidity..which is why as last as Vietnam, 12ga. ammo was issued in brass) and have a rather abrupt forcing cone.

No doubt about it, have had ample time for someone to have run a chamber reamer in there at some time in the last 110years or so.
 
Asuming it's not eroded or othewise damaged, then it's about the same as modern specs....a little bit larger, but some modern guns go that large. Would test with plastic cases (or paper) but it seems like it should work.

Thye importance of forcing cones wasn't well known...looks more like they tried to get the breechloaders to look internally like muzzle loaders. Prabably forcing coens becasume more impotant with the use of smokless powder, but thse old guns usually have a chamber that looks more like a pistol or rifle shamber: an abrupt end with little taper to bore diameter.
 
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