An incident occured yesterday

D

Doug.38PR

Moderator
Yesterday I went with my dad to talk to some property owners in relation to a claim somone else had on some adjoining property that actually belonged to another party. The people we were talking to called the man who claimed to own the adjoining property and talked to him about it and he raced over to their property from down the road and started questioning us. One of the first things he said was that he had called the sheriff and he was on his way. He said we were on private property (NOT HIS). We pointed the fact that we were on someone else's property on our own business an not his property and that if the people present wanted us to leave we would. He was trying to start a fight either verbally and maybe even physically (as an excuse to have us arrested I guess). We didn't oblidge him. :rolleyes: We had done nothing illegal or wrong and were within the law. The people who owned the property were present and didn't have any problem with me or my dad sitting there but the guy started badgering them and trying to get them to get us tell us to leave, they were embarrassed but decided with the guy there upset and trying to argue with us it would be best for all of us to move on. I'm not sure the sheriff was really called. We did notice a patrol car entering the area on our way out.

Now, the instant, the guy said "the sheriff is on his way" I subtly made my way back to my truck pretending to get something or check something and took my holster off and put it in the console. While I was within the law, I didn't want the sheriff to arrive and my have to pull my CHL out. 1) I thought it might look bad to the sheriff if someone present on someone else's property had a gun on them during any kind of dispute (within or without the law) that led to his being called out there, 2) I didn't want the people present to find out that I had a gun and word would get around 3) if they did find out they might get it in their minds that I came out there to intimidate them in some way.

This raises a question, if I ever have to pull out my CHL to a LEO on the scene how will he handle it? Can we handle it subtly so nobody else knows what we are exchanging or will he say outloud "So you have a gun on your person now? Let me see it. Put your hands on the car and let me take it out" (for all to see) I really don't want everyone to know that I carry. Legal or not, they can use it as a weapon against you.
Also, at what point do I need to produce it? When he arrives on the scene or when he approaches me personally.
 
I think you made a bad choice. You were being confronted by an unknown individual that was acting in an irrational, if not hostile manner, and you put your gun away.:confused: I don't get it, this situation is exactly why you should be carrying. It sounds as though you were well within your legal rights, you were calm, rational, had witnesses, and weren't brandishing. By actually removing your gun you potentially created a very, very bad situation. Had you been observed you could have been mistaken for brandishing - maybe the agitated neighbor saw you and he was carrying - he, or anyone else - including an LEO, could have mistakenly thought you were removing your gun from the vehicle in order to start shooting. This could have been a very bad scene!

As far as LEO, some states mandate you state that you are carrying whenever stopped or questioned, others only if they ask. I would simply tell him after he makes first contact with you. "Officer, before we go any further I want to inform you that I have a CHL and I am armed - how do you want me to proceed?" How the LEO handles it may depend on how you broach the subject but in any event if you're that unsure of yourself while carrying, worrying what others will think, how you should interact with LEO, etc I respectfully suggest that you consider additional training, speak to local LE, etc to gain insight and confidence on how to handle yourself while armed. You should strive for the point at which carrying your gun is part of your everyday world and having it at your side doesnt make you nervous or apprehensive - confidence in your ability and your behavior are very important.
 
well, he never made any physical moves against us, he just kept making inflammatory statements to us about him not wanting us their and suggesting that we were involved in some kind of illegal activity (which we were not). He was trying to verbally provoke an argument. Since he seemed to be looking for an excuse to get us in legal trouble whether by LEO or by Lawyer I thought it best if my sidearm exited the scene. Nobody could have seen me remove my gun, I was sure of that before I moved to do it.

It's not so much worrying abou what LEOs might do as much as what the situation may look like. I TRY TO TREAT MY CONCEALED CARRYING THE WAY CLARK KENT DOES HIS SUPERMAN ID. I tell only a SELECT body of people. I don't want ANYONE to know unless they are a close friend or a LEO whom I am reqired to tell. If your cover is blown, your employer might find out and get upset and tell you you can't carry when on their business (legally you can but your job and more importantly relations with him may depend on it), word will get around to other people that "that guy carries" and they will ask you if you are carrying whenever they see you, THEY might worry about it. The more unwanted people find out, the more trouble you create for yourself. I discovered this when I foolishly confided in a client of my employer 6 months ago who proceeded to tell his partners and my employer because he was scared that I carried a gun.
 
In the situation you describe I would approach the side of my vehicle most visible to the LEO with my back (I usually carry strong side) to my vehicle, my attention in the direction of the LEO. I would have my permit and my drivers license in my hand. If the LEO approached me or made eye contact with me I would point out who called the police "That guy is who called you out". I would keep my mouth shut an remain in the same position until the caller and the officer completed their exchange. If the person is irrational, agitated or intoxicated the officer will know within seconds of talking to him. There is a chance the officer will never talk to you if the caller is obviously the problem. If he does want your story I would respectfully request a private conversation with the LEO, the LEO will more than likely agree. I would hand him my ID with the permit face up and say "I am carrying a firearm, I would appreciate keeping that between us." Then I would respond to what ever the caller was complaining about. If the officer asked me to move along...I'm gone. The LEO may ask the complainer to leave.

Let everyone else who is there vent, scream, and loose their tempers while you are remaining silent and still just listening, then when it is your turn speak softly and and only respond to the complaints made by the others.

I have had contact with LEOs in the field an average of one time per week for 15 years. I have had several thank me for my demeanor.

I don't quite understand why you were there, what was the objective?:confused:
 
As for removing your gun....I understand why you did that, but you are far more likely to require it during this type of confrontation than going to the grocery store. What if after you removed your gun you found out he had a .25 auto in his back pocket? I don't care if he was 90 he could have a gun and he could shoot you with it. IMHO
 
Yesterday I went with my dad to talk to some property owners in relation to a claim somone else had on some adjoining property that actually belonged to another party. The people we were talking to called the man who claimed to own the adjoining property and talked to him about it and he raced over to their property from down the road and started questioning us. One of the first things he said was that he had called the sheriff and he was on his way. He said we were on private property (NOT HIS). We pointed the fact that we were on someone else's property on our own business an not his property and that if the people present wanted us to leave we would.
Click to expand...

That's sort of a baffling description of who owned what. What I read from it is your dad (or you) were either there in some official capacity to help resolve the dispute or you were just there as friends or acquaintences for the same purpose.

If the first is true, then you should have had no trouble fashioning a way to tell the LEO that and getting him to talk with you privately. You might get told that next time you feel the need to manage a dispute that, rather than go armed, you ask a deputy to meet you there, or told some other advice.

If the second is true, then you oughta really think carefully before getting involved in other people's disputes. Lawyers and investigators get paid to stick their noses into such things, and they get paid a lot because it can get really nasty.

It's one thing to be tempted to get involved in the defense of another who is being violently attacked. But to voluntarily get involved in something that could be decided civilly, and to bring your gun to such an event, is just plain asking for trouble.
 
pippoman,
The whole situation is a long story, and I'd rather not start blathering it all over the net, but it has to do with an easement that the hostile guy says he owns when in fact according to county records it is a county road. Our client is trying to gain access to some land leased to us to another company via that road. The hostile person "purchased" that road (in a bad deed) two weeks ago from someone who didn't even own the property that the road easement passes through. The county has has had title to the easement for over 15 years. His whole point of "purchasing" the easement and putting up a gate was to keep our client out. (his reason is an even longer story, but basically what this is is him pouting about something that didn't go his way).

My dad and I went out there to speak to the people who owned the property surrounding the easement to ask them what they knew about the gate that had been put up just beyond their home on what we knew to be a county road across their land.

They weren't sure but thought the hostile guy had legally bought it and didn't realize that it was a county road past where he put up the gate. At that point they called the guy and he came racing over there (on their property) for a confrontation with us. One of the first things he said was that he had called the sheriff. At that point I realized he was trying to make legal trouble (not necessarily physical gun trouble) so I thought it best to remove my weapon as I thought it might very well have to be exposed to everyone when the sheriff arrived.


I do like your advice about how to approach the LEO on the subject. The guy was doing all the fussing and kicking dirt around not us. I was thinking that the best way to approach LEO was to approach him, make like I am handing him my DL and whisper (before he gets to everyone or in some subtle way) "I'd rather everyone now know about this. what do you want to do?"

Intervention_45

The whole reason I got a CHL was because I do stuff like this all the time (travel a lot and visit unknown people in isolated and sometimes dangerous areas). When I saw the guy was threatening us with the presence of a legitimate LEO and not a gun, I thought it best if my gun exited the scene since a LEO might cause it to be exposed to everyone....and might even make it look like we were out there to intimidate someone.
 
Also, at what point do I need to produce it? When he arrives on the scene or when he approaches me personally.

Does your state have laws about this? It is surprising to me that you have an official CHL and are so clueless about the laws in your state.

Second, your tactics - A person is threatening you and may be violent. The sheriff has been called and will arrive in an unknown time. For all you know, the angry man will wipe out a knife and slice you into Doug Burger.

The best tactic would have been to leave or did you relish a conversation. At the police station or on the phone, tell the law the problem, make a complaint and ask them to help you.

As it is, you trusted a nut ball to have really called the law and then you disarmed yourself. Clark Kent may try to disguise himself but he is still Superman. You stuck kryptonite up your own butt.

Look, guy - I don't mean to pick on you but for your own well being - you are sadly deficient in any practical knowledge about being an armed citizen. I once asked if you had any serious training beyond getting the CHL. This performance (if told truthfully) is really indicative of a need to get beyond internet chatter on scenarios and gun usage and type.

1. Learn your state laws
2. Go to classes that deal with such interactions or at least read the excellent books mention many times on forums like this.

PS - I see you are in TX, thus you should know the state law on when you tell an officer about the CHL.
 
The state law says that you have to produce your DL and CHL when approached in an official manner by a peace officer (Texas).

HOWEVER, that being what the law says, how exactly do you define approached? Does that mean when he walks up to you personally or arrives on the scene of an incident you are involved with. I make it a point to notify a LEO ASAP. The idea is that he knows as soon as possible who is armed or not for his safety and all around. Failure to do so is an offense.

As for your thougths on my actions (you who are always advising caution and looking first for tactical ways to NOT use a gun, I would have thought this is one occasion where we would have seen eye to eye), I guess you really had to be there. It was more instinct than it was exactly what was said. I didn't describe everthing in exact detail of what is going and what it is all about. The nature of all this trouble is a long drawn out personal deal on the guy's part and I'd rather not write a book on TFL the whole story.

We were on someone else's property, this guy was in no way trying to approach us trying to incite physical harm (at best he was trying to verbally make us mad to lead us into somekind of potential physical confrontation) He was trying to find an excuse to have us arrested or scaring us into thinking he could do so. We had our clients attorney on the phone during the whole thing.

I had my gun with my particularly because I was unsure of how this guy may respond. How far he would go. From the beginning of troubles a few weeks ago for all I knew (given his childish irrational reactions to things) he could be waiting out there with a shotgun or rifle ready to forcefully run me my dad or both off. I went out there with my dad as he would be less inclined try something against two.

Also considering he knew the people whose property we were on by their first name and we were out of towners and that a LEO (who could also be a friend of the guy) was on his way, I thought it best to be extra discrete with my gun. Given all the factors named throughout this post.

After he started talking about private property, sheriff coming and mouthing off like a 5 year old (the guy is in his 60s I think) I seriously didn't get the impression that he would pull a weapon of any kind. When I say he was acting like a 5 year old, I AM NOT KIDDING. It was like in Jr. High.

From that point I decided that the presence of my gun would do more harm than good. AGAIN, YES I was within my legal rights. But legal rights or not, is it a good idea?
 
Doug, . . . I guess I would have to say you handled it differently than I would have. If I had stayed, . . . my weapon would have stayed, . . . and, . . . conversely, . . . if my weapon left, . . . it would be because I wore it away. It is exactly the type of confrontation you described that far too often goes on to be much more serious. I carry a handgun to make sure that when those unavoidable situations occur, . . . I'm for sure walking away, . . . the other guy can if he chooses, . . .

Too, . . . this is an obvious "legality mumbo-jumbo" question / situation, that will in all liklihood require interpretation and judgment in a court of law. I would have simply told the old boy to say hello to the sheriff for me, . . . and I would see him in court, . . . period. Then I would have walked off. There ain't no piece of ground worth my life or my freedom, . . . or anyone else's, . . . that's what we have judges & juries for.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
doug, i would suggest, when in a situation where a LEO is called to the scene, that you keep your weapon on. i am assuming that you and your dad, and the property owners, all had level heads, werent arguing, or yelling, or behaving like 2 yr olds.

a LEO would probably make his way to talk to everyone individually, and that is what i would define as 'making contact' and at that moment is when you would need to declare your status as an armed CHL holder. everyone has their own way of doing it, one that has worked in the only time i've ever had to produce it is to have the license and my DL in my hand and pass it to the LEO saying 'State law requires i hand this to you and inform you i am carrying before we go any further'.

most LEO's will be perturbed at the idiot whining and kicking dust around, and will probably not give a hoot about you being armed. in fact, your demeanor, and adherence to your states law requiriing you inform the officer you are carrying will probably be appreciated.
 
IIRC something similar happened to someone @ JFPO a few years back.
I want to say it was Aaron Zellman that got into a verbal altercation with someone and decided to stow his CCW in the trunk. Unfortunately the other guy spotted what he was doing and accused him of threatening him with a firearm.

Ahh here it is:

http://www.jpfo.org/carry_warn.htm


Edited for correct link.
 
the other arguement could be

did the folks that owned the property know you were carrying? At least in S.C. you have to have the owners permission to carry.
 
This is one of those cases where "trespass" could have turned into "armed trespass" a much more serious offense.

On one hand you covered your ass legally, on the other if you were seriously threatened you obviously would be at a severe disadvantage.

Only you can say.
 
presenting your license

"Approached" to me is being asked for your identification. When asked for ID, provide your drivers license (or state issued ID) AND your CHL. In a perfect world, the LEO will see you as an upstanding citizen with no felony or class A misdemeanor arrests, trained to a degree in gun ownership and someone interested in the law because that's what you have to be to acquire and retain a Texas CHL. I don't think any volunteering of further info after providing your CHL is required unless the LEO asks.. "Are you in possession of a firearm right now?" ... "Yes". Depending on the situation he may want to see it. Not likely unless he feels a need to take it away from you. If you say "no, it's in my car", he may want to be assured of that and search you. If you lied, that's a problem. If he knows you have a gun on you, that's all that matters. If you have a gun in your vehicle (not to mention ON your person) and you fail to give him your CHL and only provide your DL, then he runs a check on you, in Texas that could mean trouble. Again, showing an LEO your CHL provides proof you are a good citizen. I'm not sure if any or all agree or disagree, but I'd like to know.

I agree with many of the others not to remove your gun in any situation unless required by the LEO. Concealment is a condition of a CHL so more than not, the LEO should handle that with disgression.

Stand up for your rights, LEO's are not there to be afraid of for good citizens, just know and understand the laws and responsibilities of CHL.

I have these views because I just went through a CHL class and am waiting for my license here in Texas. I plan on continuing my education in safety, responsibility & the law, and tactics.
 
Approached" to me is being asked for your identification. When asked for ID, provide your drivers license (or state issued ID) AND your CHL. In a perfect world, the LEO will see you as an upstanding citizen with no felony or class A misdemeanor arrests, trained to a degree in gun ownership and someone interested in the law because that's what you have to be to acquire and retain a Texas CHL. I don't think any volunteering of further info after providing your CHL is required unless the LEO asks.. "Are you in possession of a firearm right now?" ... "Yes". Depending on the situation he may want to see it. Not likely unless he feels a need to take it away from you. If you say "no, it's in my car", he may want to be assured of that and search you. If you lied, that's a problem. If he knows you have a gun on you, that's all that matters. If you have a gun in your vehicle (not to mention ON your person) and you fail to give him your CHL and only provide your DL, then he runs a check on you, in Texas that could mean trouble. Again, showing an LEO your CHL provides proof you are a good citizen. I'm not sure if any or all agree or disagree, but I'd like to know.
Click to expand...

Asking for identification is technically how the law reads. BUT I have heard that you should produce it whenever you are approached in an official manner (meaning have it out and hand it to them whether they ask for ID or not. The whole idea behind being required to produce it tot he officer, as I understand, is that they know ASAP who on the scene is armed.

If it is in my car, and I am not in my car then it is not really "on or about my person" (meaning it's nowhere where I can get to it) then there shouldn't be a problem if he runs a check.


As for notifying the property owner, that is not required in Texas. As for trespassing, we had the people's okay to be there talking on the cell phone. Again it was not the idiot's property. And when the people ask us to leave )after Mr. Idiot kept badgering them) we did, as I told them we would do. Trespass and armed trespass are not an issue here.

I'm sure I would have been legally okay and all if I had kept the gun on, but the as the situation unfolded I sensed that there was no danger to us physically. I felt that if a my gun had been discovered then I would have, as everyone agrees, been well within my legal rights. BUT, at the time, my cover as a CHLer could have easily been blown with everyone with the arrival of a LEO. I didn't want it getting around that I carried. I was even hoping the sheriff would have gotten there before we left. My dad commented that if he had known for sure that he was coming then he would have stayed as he could have easily made the guy look like a fool.

Next time maybe I will keep it on, as most in here seem to believe that a LEO would more than likely be willing to be discrete about my gun. :)
 
Trespass in my state (I believe in most) can either be criminal trespass or civil trespass. Criminal trespass requires criminal intent; theft, arson, burglary, invasion of privacy, etc. If you go on private property with no locks on gates or doors (excluding residences/dwellings) with a lawful purpose there is no criminal act, this is civil trespass. The property owner may seek relief in civil court: restraining order, cease, desist, etc. If the lawful owner of the property requests you leave you should leave without argument to avoid disorderly conduct, etc.

pipoman
Walking a fine line since 1989.
 
Like I said before

my concern is from my state's laws perspective. Did the folks who own the land and were okay with you being on it know you had a gun on your person? In S.C. you have to have their permission to carry. If the poster had kept the gun on him and the police had shown up and then he had had to inform them he was carrying and that's when the owners discoverd he had a gun...things could have turned bad quick, at least the way the law reads in my state.

that's the one thing I think that hinges on whether he should have put the gun in the car or not.
 
blume357, while your concern for your states laws is laudable, it does nothing to further dialogue for this thread. Especially since Doug has already told us that Texas law prevails in the very first sentence of Post #9, above. Let's keep it on topic, shall we?
 
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