An almost shooting here in Phoenix

J

John/az2

New member
At a Home Depot a former employee came back with a rife. One shot was fired as the police tackled him, from his rifle, I believe.

My details are sketchy, as I just overheard it.

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Here is a for instance:

You are at that Home Depot, carrying (concealed or open doen't matter).

How would you react? What would you do?


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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
If I saw the guy coming in, keep an eye on him until he starts shooting. If not, head for the sound of the shot (using the shelves as cover), throw down on him, and scream "DROP IT!" at the top of my not inconsiderable lungs. If he does, well and good. If he goes for the trigger again, lay him out.

No, I'm not advocating "playing cop." If the police were really on scene, well and good. If not, he's meat.

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"America needs additional gun laws like a giraffe needs snow tires."
--Rabbi Mermelstein, JPFO
 
I agree with Coinneach, generally. This will sound goofy, but Massad Ayoob makes a case that linquists (?) have considered what to say, and concluded that 'DON'T MOVE!' in command voice is the best command. (1) It is really what you want them to do - you don't want the guy moving the rifle around, and (2) it apparently is easily understood by all parties in the area.

It is clear that you try to avoid taking the first shot unless it is clearly required, since the risks are so high to yourself and innocent others in the area.

Maybe the guy just hates Home Depot as much as my wife does ... ;)

Glad it turned out alright. John, take care.
 
Not real sure what I would do. Hopefully the right thing; but what is that?

I am kinda new around TFL and am not LE, military, or any type a profession that allows shooting and practicing of scenarios all day. Nor do I have tons o'cash laying around to trapse off to LFI or ThunderRanch for a week or two.

I am not new to firearms but I have no real knowledge of these types of situations other than my own ponderings,the ocassional magazine article, or friends/family's stories. So where do I learn more about scenarios such as this? I am starting here.

I know, I know I first have to bring the gun to a gun fight and be able to use it effectively. Do I read the Ayoob library? Do I buy the TFL library listing and read away? Do I take a few classes at the local gun range and hope I get what I need?

I can hopefully defend my family/friends in our house but what about Home Depot, grocery store, library, in the car, ...
 
indyspc, welcome. I'm hardly an expert in this area. But, here are a few suggestions, offered from the standpoint of about 12 months of experience (so, take me with a grain of salt):

1. Check out 'The Red Zone' on Rec.Guns:
http://www.recguns.com/TRZ.html

Some pretty interesting discussion.

2. Get a concealed carry permit, or at least take the course, if offered in your state. Lots of good self defense tips and info, from my experience. One thing my instructor stressed - consider what you would do in various situations, so that you are better prepared, mentally. We take on a grave responsibility when we carry firearms, and we're responsible for every round. They should also discuss the color-coded concept of defense - white, yellow, red, etc.

3. Even if you can't take a whole week for training, you may find that even top schools like Gunsite offer more reasonably priced weekend or evening training. That has certainly helped me. Ask lots of questions.

4. Check out TFL's own 'AF / CQC' forum on this board. Lots of good discussion. Again, ask lots of questions. The folks around here are great - our LEO's, civilian shooters and military personnel are always ready to provide tips and feedback.

5. Another interesting tool I have enjoyed is SafetyOn software - check it out at:
http://www.safetyon.com/


Take care out there. Regards from AZ
 
"Watch out! He's got a... no, that's a caulk gun... Well, no, that would be a staple gun... Um... nope-- nail gun, there. Ah! He's got a 16 gauge...spool of wire. Well, heck... where is he?"

****

"Drop it! I've got a Stanley 22 oz framing hammer, and I'm not afraid to use it!"

****

"Put it down, or your next purchase will be a 2 mil drop cloth!"

:) :D

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 13, 1999).]
 
There was almost a shooting at the college I attend in San Diego, CA. One of the Psychology Professors had been stalked for the last thirteen years by I guy from Tennessee. No relation between the two. The professor has no clue how the guy even knows him. Well, on Monday the stalker showed up in his car with a 9mm Beretta and an sks. He was sitting in his car across the street waiting for the Professor. The manager of the gas station there notice him wearing camoflauge. I the end he had no plans of hurting anyone but the Professor. Still don't know why he was stalking him for 13 years.

[This message has been edited by weiser09 (edited October 13, 1999).]
 
Ayoob, I believe, has also advocated the challenge "Stop! Police!" even if you're not the police.

The reasoning is, when you yell "Police!" you are summoning the police, not impersonating an officer. The command "Police!" may make your enemy consider you more of a force to be reckoned with.

And is it "Throw Down" or "Draw Down"? I've heard the term "Throw Down Gun" to mean the untraceable gun a police officer carries, reserved for the purpose of "throwing down" next to someone he's shot, who he shouldn't have shot.

"Draw Down" I have heard as a phrase meaning to draw your gun and point it at someone.
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789

[This message has been edited by deanf (edited October 13, 1999).]
 
Some interesting attitudes here. Personally, Home Depot being a big store and my wife and kids being glad to have me come home each night, if I heard gunshots in the store I would move AWAY from them, not toward them.

It is my understanding that essentially every state with CCL emphasizes that when you get a carry license you did NOT just become a cop, you are not only not expected to act as one but are putting yourself at extreme risk of lawsuits even if you succeed in surviving.

If the goblin in question is blazing away in my area, I'll take my chances, but I'd be durned if I'd go looking for him. A vigilante I ain't. One hand on the weapon while the other dials 911 on the cell phone while I execute the textbook strategic withdrawal, once in the car I am OUTTA there!
 
Long Path, we'll try to stop you, before you can frame again ... ;)

Larry P., your points are well taken, and most of us hope to never encounter such a situation. However, while we certainly don't become LEO's when we receive a CCW permit, we also have to consider what we will really do if innocent people are being killed around us. We could debate this all day, and it would be so much fluff, because I know I don't know what I would really do if such an incident occurs. But, I will say this - I surely hope that if I was in such a situation, my first thought wouldn't be avoiding legal liability. Sure, that's practical, and considering the aftermath is important ... I just would hope those innocent lives would tip the scales in my mind.

By the same token, my training so far has indicated that clearing a house by yourself is practically suicide, and an entire Home Depot would be worse. So, I would assume if you think it is one nutcase, and you know his location (by shots nearby ...), then that would probably cause you to take action. Looking around for him would be a different matter.

deanf, I took sort of an LFI 'lite' course for 2 days about one month ago, and Ayoob discouraged the 'Police!' approach. I'm sure this can lead to long debates as well. 'Don't Move!' will work for me. Might be handy when the kids get rowdy too. ;)

Take care.
 
Shots fired!

- Is it a single nutcase? Might he have friends here with concealed weapons?

- Is it a robbery? How many "bad guys" are there with guns? Can you see them all? Do you even know where they are?

- What if an off-duty cop (in civvies) can't tell you're one of the good guys?

- What if another CCW person with little training and no common sense becomes involved? And he's behind you where you can't see him?

- If you shoot a bad guy (even justifiably) and somebody else with a gun can see only you shooting, what happens next?

- How about that John Wayne wannabe coming around the counter with a shotgun he got from his car (because he saw the bad guy before you did)?

- Who is with me? My wife? My kids? Plus neighbor's kids? My 87 y/o Mother who is deaf and legally blind?

- There's the bad guy! He just shot a woman now he's going to shoot her child! Hmmm. I wonder how many employees are cowering behind that 3/8" plasterboard wall behind the bad guy.

- Yoicks! That 17 y/o girl just ran between me and the shooter and I didn't even see her coming!
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Hmmm. I wonder how many hundred ways I could get shot by a bad guy OR a good guy if I start waving this gun around?

Hmmm. How can I "take care of business" without accidently endangering someone else? Maybe even someone I can't see?

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
Dennis, you make a lot of good observations. 'Tailgunners' and other criminal tactics make anything like this a spooky situation. So, what do you do? Just head for the nearest exit if you see a BG shooting innocent people, and you have the means to possibly end a slaughter? If your point was to highlight many of the potential problems, I understand. But was your point that no civilian should ever try to end such a criminal act? If so, I'll be interested to see if Robert Waters jumps in here ...
 
Jeff,
I'll be brutally honest.

I've witnessed a robbery where a shot was fired into the ceiling. I was unarmed (prior to CHL in Texas).

My girls were little and I grabbed them and escaped to a back exit. Only later did I realize that the four scrapes on my right side were from my right hand grabbing for my .45 (which I sometimes carried).
-------

Above, I wanted to note that there are many questions and dangers to be addressed in responding to BGs and violence. I've played hundreds (maybe thousands) of "what if" scenarios in my mind. The results run the gamut from E&E (Evade and Escape) to shoot 'em all! (Just the BGs, folks. ;) )

At Killeen (Luby's), there clearly was only one shooter, unopposed and unassisted. I'd drop him with a head shot.

At Best (the store in San Antonio), I had my little girls with me in a crowded store. Even if armed, I first would get them to safety. (e.g. What if I was shot and they ran to me???)

Too many possible scenarios for a pat answer. I just hoped to enlarge the concept of possible threats and complications. (chuckle) Better here on TFL than in Home Depot! ;)
 
Jeff,

Thanks for the link to TRZ. I did well I think. But I am still hesitant about the large and deep legal potholes full of kah-kah. Especially with a lack of serious tactical training. And Dennis brings up several points that I had not thought of before.

I also read some good information on another post about a similar topic: http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=44774

I have to move out from behind this pc and get to a training course. I’ll begin saving today(that new shotgun will have to wait). Thanks.
 
Dennis, we're on the same wave length. You can bet I would do the same with my kids. And, a public forum like this is probably not a good place to discuss some of the uglier BG tactics. But, I hear you.

indyspc, you're welcome.

Take care.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
Back in early '94 a retired gentleman was on his way to the grocery store for a few things. He ended up behind a sheriff's patrol car at some point. The officer pulled away quickly, turned, then jumped out of his car and for some reason and pointed his pistol at a jeep cherokee. Five, count em, 5 baggy pants - black coat wearin "youths" jumped out of this jeep with guns a blazin. This man who happened to have his CZ and a Sig in his truck jumped out (this was the same day he was released from the VA hospital recovering from a heart attack AND a brain tumor - and before the Texas CHL was implimented) only to see the officer take 3 hits and go down. In short, this guy emptied 2 or 3 magazines to hold off the gunmen long enough until their courage dissipated and made them run away - the old guy still firing.

I sopke to this man last night at a gun club meeting. He said he is still mad that out of the 60 cars that lined up to watch this firefight - NOBODY came to help. As the gunmen were running away, one of them in his sights, a woman pulled up in a small car with a 8 week old baby strapped in the car seat and told the old man that she had a gun in the car and would help if he needed it. As the immediate danger was over he asked her to call the police.

My heart was pounding when he told this story to me. What if that officer were one of your family members? What if that old man was your father or grandfather? Would you want, no - expect, someone to help out?

It's a true story, just look it up in the news archives. The sheriff lived and this guy was honored many times. In fact, he was instrumental in helping the Texas CCW bill get passed.

I for one could not live with myself if I didntt try to help someone in this type if situation.

Be safe.

CMOS
 
Those of you who have said that we should use our guns to protect not only ourselves but others too are of course quite right. But Dennis highlights my own personal nightmare, you're in a store, shots are fired, you pull your HK, adopt a low ready stance, finger on the trigger guard and then watch your red stuff paint the floor because the 2 cops who were finishing off their donuts in the car park just came running in, saw you and opened up with their Glocks, your last thought is "this ain't the way its supposed to happen .......", sorry but identification is a big problem, we have the worst record for friendly fire engagements both in peacetime and wartime.

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Mike H
 
Mike,

You paint a very possible and very scary picture!
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CMOS,
(I bet you have a good memory!)

I’m with you 100% in your situation. Here’s a similar one.

Here in Texas, one dark night, a deputy stopped a car on a lonely road.
As the deputy approached the car six men jumped out and began to
surround the deputy. None of the six had weapons, all six were saying
they did not speak English, and none obeyed the officer’s demands to
step back.

As they began to surround the officer, a passerby stopped, whipped out a
12 ga and racked a round into the chamber.

Suddenly the six men became bi-lingual and hit the dirt as directed. All
six became “guests” of the county.

The citizen refused recognition and nothing more was mentioned.
(Mike, this is another Reader’s Digest version!)

This was a righteous thing for the citizen to do because he did not
endanger any innocent people and he identified himself well to the
officer. All ended peacefully and appropriately.

However, had the citizen been transporting a bunch of kids, different action would have been required.
 
I happen to live a couple miles away from this Home Depot and go into this store once a week or so. This is a hard call for me because I usually see a friend or neighbor when my wife and I are in this area. To be honest with everyone, this is one of the safest area's I've lived in. Anyway this and any other threat similar to this would be handled in this way.
1. Family to safety
2. Cover
3. Draw and sight in threat from behind cover
4. Wait for threat to display deadly intent towards another person.
5. Shoot Threat until he/she is no longer a danger to anyone.
 
Mleaky,

With a handle like your's, I would think that you would be there at least that frequently! :)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
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