Amp - Annealing Under the Microscope Part III

H

hounddawg

New member
Have to say I was pretty disappointed in this one at the end of part II they promised
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Our next series of tests will focus on further optimizing tensile pull test results. We will compare stainless steel tumbling with ultrasonic cleaning, and also test further lube options with particular attention to the inside neck surface.
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instead we get a infomercial so this post is a bit of a rant.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/46/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Their latest is more of a why you need to spend more money for the Aztec program sales pitch. At least that is all I gathered from it. The only reson I am posting a link is for the people here who are really into the tech side of the brass. I thought that those who are interested in brass consistency is might find something worthwhile in there.

It may also prove interesting for those who own the basic machine and want to be persuaded into spending another $200 for the PERFECT ANNEAL ( insert sound of angels singing here) after you already spent $1100. I think all the machines currently sold have the new tech along with a jacked up price and the Aztec software installed

They might think about doing a real people shooting real ammo at a shooting range study to see if annealing actually helps accuracy or case life or if it is just lab geek tech talk with no impact on real world shooting other than smoke, mirrors and snake oil
 
If annealing did nothing manufactures wouldn’t waste the time and money doing it while forming cases and the military wouldn’t require it to be obvious that the process was performed on the ammunition (it’s not tumbled pretty afterwards).

That said, there has been a lot of brass “over cooked” with some methods of the process but you also don’t need much to make it a very consistent process either.
 
Annealing isn't mandatory but it would seem that it's a good practice. I just ran into a situation with some HSM 270 WSM rounds that I bought. It was so work hardened that after a full resize, within 5 minutes it would go right back to where it was. I was dumb founded and thought at first it was my RCBS dies so I ordered a 3 piece set of Redding Precision dies and tried again. It was slightly better but still chambered very stiffly in my rifle.

I then decided to make up a dummy round with a properly seated bullet and I had a heck of a time because the slight flare on the neck from the die had closed back up again.

At this point I was pretty confident that the brass was work hardened and if I wanted to use it I was going to have to figure out how to fix it.

I am a proficient welder and have TIG welded brass and bronze so I'm familiar with annealing. I headed out to the garage, grabbed my propane torch and began heating up the neck of the brass. I watched a video on YouTube about different methods and chose to use the brass in the socket with a drill method. It worked but I quickly realized that if I had more than a couple of pieces to do, the heat transfer into my drill would not be good for the drill.

I ordered the Vertex case neck annealing machine from Brownells and now plan to anneal all my once fired brass. Why spend 500.00 for an annealing machine? I'm a believer in having the right tool for the job. I spend a lot of time when I develop a load and if the resize changes even the slightest afterwards what's the point, I might as well just buy off the shelf ammo and hope it shoots right.
 
"...the tech side of the brass..." Usually way over complicated by most reloaders. Annealing does nothing but soften the brass to extend case life. There really is no such thing as "the perfect anneal". No need for a thousand dollar machine, that seems to be discontinued, to do it either.
"...slight flare on the neck..." Shouldn't be any flaring with a rifle case.
 
Annealing does nothing but soften the brass to extend case life. There really is no such thing as "the perfect anneal". No need for a thousand dollar machine, that seems to be discontinued, to do it either.
"...slight flare on the neck..." Shouldn't be any flaring with a rifle case.
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Interesting comment. Sorry I just can't agree. My machine was just over 500.00 with shipping. What difference does if make if there's a slight flare. Norma does it with their new brass. It's gets removed when you seat the bullet. The crimp on a rifle bullet is often not needed but I like a .002 crimp just to keep things consistent.
 
If annealing did nothing manufactures wouldn’t waste the time and money doing it while forming cases and the military wouldn’t require it to be obvious that the process was performed on the ammunition
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I think there is a considerable difference between taking a solid brass ingot and bending and stretching it into a case compared to the case being stretched out a few thousandths then squeezed back by the die. Just a bit more molecular manipulation involved in the former

If annealing is so crucial, why has there not been any testing beyond yeah the machine will get the case hot and here is what is going on at the microscopic level ? As I have said many times I do anneal and after every firing, however the more I learn about the art of reloading the more I think it is just snake oil for reloaders to spend money on

The next batch of new cases I buy I am going to load ten with a known single digit SD load and shoot them ten times over the chrony with the same load and never anneal just to track the track the SD's

No need for a thousand dollar machine, that seems to be discontinued, to do it either.
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they still sell the AMP at Brownells but now it $1300 is the Mark I becasue the AZTEC software pre installed and no longer an option
 
I wish I could send you one of the cases I have that's truly work hardened but still in good condition otherwise. It's crazy how it attempts to resize but quickly returns to its post sizing form. I had never seen that before now. That said, when you are sizing and bumping shoulders you expect that the process will produce a finished product. When it doesnt it can be very frustrating if you cant properly fix it. If annealing is the fix then that's what you do. I dont know if I can fix these cases or not but I'm going to use annealing in the future to try to avoid it.
 
Linestretcher I have some Lapua .308 Palma cases bought in 2010 that have close to 30 reloadings on them and the only anneal they ever saw was a occasional drill, socket and plumbers torch anneal. Only issues I had with them was with loose primer pockets.

Like I keep saying if annealing is all that why won't sites like Accurate Shooter, 6.5 guys, LongRange Shooter etc do a real world no BS test on annealed versus never annealed accuracy and velocity consistency. I have seen tests on primers, ammo, scales, priming tools, and yes even annealing machines but never anything more technical than yes the annealing machine will get the case hot
 
Houndwaw: I believe annealing in the Neck and Shoulder is for proper performance of expansion and sealing of the brass.

Lower down its a different anneal and harder down around the base even more so.

But yes, annealing definitely stops neck cracks for a significant amount of time.

I don't know what it does for accuracy. I do know that bullet seating gets really hard before the necks crack.

Military would not have that final anneal if it did not make things work better or right enough to be worth it, they are one shot and done.

I did think the AMP claimer perfect annealing all along? Good to know you can get even more perfect than perfect.
 
@RC

From the beginning when I became interested in precision shooting I have annealed cases to some degree. We are talking the cordless drill, deep well socket and a plumbers torch in a darkened room for my .308's on a sporadic basis but around every fifth firing. I did not even bother with that for my AR and lake city pick up brass and I have never had a neck split. I have had two necks just come off completely in the chamber but I think those were more a result of me learning how to FL size and stretching my brass too much and/or trying to get that 12th reload from Hornady brass

I have seen little difference in case life from the days of the drill and socket to the Annealeeze. My accuracy and SD's have improved but what if anything annealing does for that is really debatable. LOw SD's are dependent on load and primer choice from what I have seen. With some loads I can take a single digit SD load and add a grain or two of powder and see a 60FPS jump with the same brass, bullet and seating depth. Other loads you can vary .4 gns and the average velocities will be within 10 FPS of each other

The Annealeeze is paid for and the gas costs me pennies so I will use it, but I am not sure exactly what I am accomplishing. It's a lucky shooting hat for me


Just my opinion and experiences.
 
The Annealeeze is paid for and the gas costs me pennies so I will use it, but I am not sure exactly what I am accomplishing.
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If you can see no difference you are wasting both time and money.
 
If you can see no difference you are wasting both time and money.
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Correction I gambled money to find something out for myself, that money stays spent whether I use it or not and a three dollar gas canister does about 1K cases.

On the waste of time thing I am retired, the time spent setting it up and operating it is a gnats butt in my day. Plus watching it operate beats sitting on the front porch and watching cars bust their shocks on the speed bump. Although the day the landscaper threw three weed eaters off his trailer was pretty amusing.

As reloaders we spend a lot of money and time on some things which may or may not matter. Take shiny for eaxample, threads on case cleaning can go on for pages and pages yet a simple wash, rinse in a 5 gallon bucket is all that is really needed.

Plus annealing makes my cases look like they just came from the Lapua box. That is important because you can never tell when you might come across a impromptu ammo beauty pageant at the range
 
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I've never annealed a case. If it is a problem I don't know it yet. Of course I've only been loading rifle for 53 years.
 
hounddawg said:
If annealing is so crucial, why has there not been any testing beyond yeah the machine will get the case hot and here is what is going on at the microscopic level ? As I have said many times I do anneal and after every firing, however the more I learn about the art of reloading the more I think it is just snake oil for reloaders to spend money on.
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You raise some valid points.

The annealing curves I've seen are fairly steep in some areas, so the time/temperature must be tightly controlled to achieve a specific hardness. Brass alloys vary as well, and that will also affect the time/temperature needed to achieve a specific hardness (other than dead soft, or nearly so).

What little I've read suggests that the affect of annealing on accuracy is slight or inconclusive.

Personally, I use the simple drill/socket/propane torch on-the-case-neck-for-about-four-or-five-seconds method. The necks are noticeably softer and it has reduced neck cracks on some problem cases. In other words I get more case life, which is the only result I was after from the effort.
 
On the waste of time thing I am retired, the time spent setting it up and operating it is a gnats butt in my day. Plus watching it operate beats sitting on the front porch and watching cars bust their shocks on the speed bump. Although the day the landscaper threw three weed eaters off his trailer was pretty amusing.
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Can I join you?

Our finest entertainment was watching people trying to back down a boat launch ramp.

Our maint guys did loose a high cost snow blower off the back of their truck one day as they left the back door open (cube van).

It was not there when they circled the block.

I don't have split necks anymore so I believe it takes care of that.

I too shot for a long time, apparently I did not re-size the same cases often enou8gh to get splits. Same with cracked heads.

I learned and feel the anneal done right is good for the one and a partial resize with minimum shoulder bump back works for the other.
 
Can I join you?
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BYOB and shooting the tires out on the speeders is strictly prohibited, much to my wife's dismay

Our finest entertainment was watching people trying to back down a boat launch ramp.
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ahhh the smell of burnt clutch in the morning

I dunno I have the machine, I will use it. If I ever get off the debit card and break down and buy a Labradar might even do a serious study. Until then propane is cheap and time is free
 
It may also prove interesting for those who own the basic machine and want to be persuaded into spending another $200 for the PERFECT ANNEAL ( insert sound of angels singing here) after you already spent $1100.
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Good grief...heat up your lead pot, stick in your thermometer, ck for 700 degrees, stick in your case, mouth down, count to 7 and remove. Short of bench rest accuracy work, yer done, padnuh. Rod
 
Correction I gambled money to find something out for myself, that money stays spent whether I use it or not and a three dollar gas canister does about 1K cases.
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Ok, do you get better results, worse results or the same results?

If it’s better, then it might be worth it, if it’s one of the other two, you wasted both time and money.

Pretty simple. I suppose if you would have otherwise used that time and money in a way that would negatively effect yourself, I can understand the “win”.

That’s the way I built my annealing machines to begin with, the fact that my results improved is why I still use them.
 
Ok, do you get better results, worse results or the same results?
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as I have said many times in this thread, I have no idea if or by how much it affects velocity consistency which is why I want to see some documented testing at the shoting bench by someone with the time and equipment

The annealing machine was the first piece of equipment I bought in my project to make precision ammo. Would I buy one today if I knew what I know now. Nope. Since it is paid for and sitting there, might as well use it. I do thank you though for your interest in making sure I spend my time and money productively.

Since you care so much about how I spend my money and my time I have a question. Should I have bought that scope upgrade I caught on sale yesterday or was that also a waste of my money?
 
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