Ammunition Advice Request
- Thread starter chronic
- Start date
dogtown tom
New member
Go ahead.
All .38 Specials (including +P) may be fired in .357 Magnum revolvers, but not vice versa. The .357 case and overall length is slightly longer preventing chambering in a .38 Special.
All .38 Specials (including +P) may be fired in .357 Magnum revolvers, but not vice versa. The .357 case and overall length is slightly longer preventing chambering in a .38 Special.
You can fire any .38 Special ammo of any type or factory level of power in a .357 magnum revolver. Firiing large quanities may however, cause a slight ring of powder residue in the chambers at the area where the .38 cases are 1/10 " shorter than the .357 cases. Normal cleaning removes it.
scottaschultz
New member
By appropriate, do you mean can it be fired in that particular gun or is it appropriate for a specific application such as personal defense or target practice?
Scott
Scott
Well, I am trying to figure out this ammo thing, esp regarding that revolver and that specific ammo. It seems from things I have read that 125 grains is stronger than 158 grains and then there is talk of high pressure ammo, etc. I am confused and #1 - don't want the gun to blow up in my face, #2 - don't want to harm the gun so it would later blow up in my face or hurt someone that I happen to let shoot it.
No, at this point I am not thinking about is it better to shoot someone with that ammo or another one. Thanks!
No, at this point I am not thinking about is it better to shoot someone with that ammo or another one. Thanks!
christcorp
New member
What you have read is concerning the throat of the barrel. The entrance of the barrel where the shell enters. What you read about the 125 grain being higher pressure is correct, but they are talking about a 357 magnum round. And yes, in some of the older "K" frames; such as the model 19, 13, 65, 66; some really hot rounds could cause a crack in the throat because the throat has a flat side on the bottom which was a little weaker. Again though, we are talking about 357 magnum 125 grain rounds. No 38 special +P is going to hurt the gun, because it's not as hot as a 357 magnum. Plus, the actual problem is a lot rarer than some people want to think anyway. And again, it only happened with some of the older "K" frames. Here's a good article on the subject. But again, a 38 special +P ANYTHING is ok in the "K" frames. Including model 19, 13, 65, 66. They aren't the same thing as a 357 magnum 125 grain round. I shoot a model 13, one of my favorite guns in the world. It's basically the exact same gun as the model 19 except it has fixed sites. While I am perfectly comfortable shooting 125 grain 357 mag rounds in it; I prefer to play it safe and shoot 158 grains. (There's very little 125 grain "PLINKING" ammo anyway, and I won't practice with defense rounds.) But I don't even think twice with shooting ANY 38 special round in it. (Which is what I use for cheap plinking). This include +P rounds. They are definitely not going to hurt anything.
http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm
In terms of power, .38 spcl. +p lies between .38 spcl. and .357 mag. It is perfectly safe to shoot it in a revolver chambered for .357 mag. If your revolver carries a .38 spcl. rating, contact the manufacturer fo advice on using +p rounds in it.
125 gr. round is not necessarily more powerful than a 158 gr. round. The number only refers to the weight of the bullet, not the powder load. Individual manufacturers may load their different bullet weight rounds with different powder types and different loads, depending on what they want the round to accomplish. Due to the limits of pressures and the laws of physics, typically a lighter bullet can be driven at a higher velocity than a heavier one. This may or may not translate ito a "more powerful" round. It's all a factor of bullet weight, velocity, barrel length, and a couple other things.
Hey "christcorp"! I'm a Model 13 fan, too. I sold one back in the mid 70's
and have been wanting another ever since. I was given a Model 19 my my sister-in-law and found another Model 19 at a recent local gun show, so I now have two acceptable replacements. 
christcorp
New member
Cool Kelty. Sounds like you have an extra one that you can hold onto and use as trading material when you find that next Model 13. Then you'll have one of each. Personally, my S&W model 13-1 357 magnum (Original 1974 year; Pinned and Counter Bored); along with my SigSauer P220 45acp; are the 2 guns of all other hand guns I have, that will NEVER EVER be sold or traded. I don't care if I was starving or if I was offered a high price for them. I won't sell them. Now, if some collector (That I could respect their appreciation of the model 13), really wanted/needed a model 13-1 in great ORIGINAL shape for a collection they had; and they wanted to offer my some obscene amount of money; e.g. $2500; I have to admit that I'd think about it. But for anything under $1000, I wouldn't even think or consider it. The early "K" frame S&W model 13, 19, and the 60 series; in my opinion are some of the best guns. Excellent history. The days of quality, reliability, and accuracy. They are simply great guns.
You got it. The weight you see listed on the ammo box is the bullet weight. For example, "Corbon 9mm 115 gr. DPX". "9mm" is the caliber, of course, "115 gr." is the bullet weight, and "DPX" is the type of round. Different powder types and loads are used by the manufacturer for different applications. For example, the Speer Gold Dot "Short Barrel" ammo uses a faster-burning powder to accelerate the bullet from the shorter barrel of a snubbie. Powder weights are more in the range of 1.5 gr. (typical) for a .32 ACP to 18 gr. (typical) for a .45 LC. Again, different powders require different loading weights.
Do some online searchng for ballistics and gel testing of the caliber you need info for. Pick the one that has the characteristics you need and that performs reliably in your gun.
Lost Sheep
New member
Clear as mud, eh?
Bullet weights are measured in grains.
Powder weight is measured in grains, too.
We have three measures of weight. English, Metric and Avoirdupois.
English: Pounds and ounces
Metric: Grams and Kilograms (do not confuse the abbreviation "g" for gram with "g" for grain.
Avoirdupois: grains. This is what we use for both powder and bullets.
Troy: the weigh of a grain is the same as in the Avoirdupois system, but the pound is 3/4 the size of the English system
Lesson: Don't mix your systems of weights and measures and always be sure (in your ammunition) to use grains.
One pound weighs 7000 grains.
So, if you have a pound of powder, and you are loading 38 specials that take 14 grains of powder, you can get 500 rounds out of one pound of powder. (Caution: Different powders use differnt amounts of powder for the same cartridge.) (Another Caution: 14 grains of powder might have a hundred or more individual grains or granules of powder. DON'T COUNT THEM! weigh them.)
I don't mean to confuse. I just want to point out that confusion is possible. Use grains exclusively for handgun and rifle ammunition (as almost all of us do) and don't talk to shotgunners until you are ready for the next level of confusion. They use ounces, drams and all kinds of wierd stuff.
Lost Sheep
Right.chronic said:
Bullet weights are measured in grains.
Powder weight is measured in grains, too.
We have three measures of weight. English, Metric and Avoirdupois.
English: Pounds and ounces
Metric: Grams and Kilograms (do not confuse the abbreviation "g" for gram with "g" for grain.
Avoirdupois: grains. This is what we use for both powder and bullets.
Troy: the weigh of a grain is the same as in the Avoirdupois system, but the pound is 3/4 the size of the English system
Lesson: Don't mix your systems of weights and measures and always be sure (in your ammunition) to use grains.
One pound weighs 7000 grains.
So, if you have a pound of powder, and you are loading 38 specials that take 14 grains of powder, you can get 500 rounds out of one pound of powder. (Caution: Different powders use differnt amounts of powder for the same cartridge.) (Another Caution: 14 grains of powder might have a hundred or more individual grains or granules of powder. DON'T COUNT THEM! weigh them.)
I don't mean to confuse. I just want to point out that confusion is possible. Use grains exclusively for handgun and rifle ammunition (as almost all of us do) and don't talk to shotgunners until you are ready for the next level of confusion. They use ounces, drams and all kinds of wierd stuff.
Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep
New member
It ain't rocket science
Don't be discouraged. Ammunition is not rocket science.
I apologize for loading you up with so much information (and so much of it not appropriate for your original question). Yes, 125 grain JHP in 38 Special +p is a very good round for shooting people or thin-skinned game.
If you are buying over the counter, ammunition is pretty simple. If you are loading your own ammunition, it is no more complex than following recipes in a cookbook.
So, don't worry about grains, grams, ounces and all that if you don't intend to get into reloading.
For store-bought ammunition, pay attention to just four things.
1 what your gun is intended by its manufacturer to shoot
2 bullet weight
3 bullet velocity
4 bullet construction
The major ammunition manufacturers never tell you how much powder or what kind they use, so don't even consider the powder at this point. Also, they will not tell you the pressure, only that the pressure falls withing SAAMI Specifications.
SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) sets standards for safe ammunition. All commercial ammunition manufacturers follow their guidelines. No worries.
38 Special bullets range from around 90 grains to 200 grains in weight. 357 magnums shoot the exact same bullet weights and sizes.
Pressure inside the 38 Special case runs about 17,000 psi (and is pretty much independent of the bullet weight). That is the pressure the cartridge works at. Lighter bullets get higher velocities and heavier bullets go slower. (90 grain bullets run out the barrel at 1200 to 1300 fps (feet per sedond), 200 grain slugs around 850 fps). (Data is from one of my loading manuals)
Pressure inside the 357 Magnum case runs about 35,000 psi. 90 grain bullets get up to 1850 fps at that pressure and 200 grains about 1300 fps, maximum.
38 Special +p runs around 20,000 psi, but I don't know velocities.
Lighter bullets get driven faster than heavier bullets (at standard SAAMI pressures), so bullet weight will largely determine what velocity you get. Bullet construction and velocity are the primary determinants of how your bullet will perform on its target.
Solid bullets penetrate deep to vital organs. Expanding bullets (hollow points ans soft points) open up a large wound channel. If a bullet is not travelling fast enough, it won't expand.
For thin-skinned game, expanding bullets work best. The 125 grain hollow point you asked about is designed for such. (By the way, people fall into the "thin-skinned game" category) But it is a bit expensive for the target practice you will find necessary. So, buy cheaper rounds that hit to the same point of aim/impact as your primary ammunition for range practice. You will have to experiment around.
So, to address (but not answer your second question, since there is no one correct answer that fits all situations). No, 158 grains is not "stronger" than 125 grains. They each have their particular characteristics. The heavier bullets may produce more recoil though.
If I were shooting at someone wearing heavy clothing, the 125 grain might not penetrate far enough, then not expand when it did. The 158 grain will go deep, but on a lighter-clothed subject might pass through with little damage.
Again, my apologies for overloading my first post with excess, irrelevant and confusing information that did not answer your question. My bad.
Lost Sheep
Don't be discouraged. Ammunition is not rocket science.
I apologize for loading you up with so much information (and so much of it not appropriate for your original question). Yes, 125 grain JHP in 38 Special +p is a very good round for shooting people or thin-skinned game.
If you are buying over the counter, ammunition is pretty simple. If you are loading your own ammunition, it is no more complex than following recipes in a cookbook.
So, don't worry about grains, grams, ounces and all that if you don't intend to get into reloading.
For store-bought ammunition, pay attention to just four things.
1 what your gun is intended by its manufacturer to shoot
2 bullet weight
3 bullet velocity
4 bullet construction
The major ammunition manufacturers never tell you how much powder or what kind they use, so don't even consider the powder at this point. Also, they will not tell you the pressure, only that the pressure falls withing SAAMI Specifications.
SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) sets standards for safe ammunition. All commercial ammunition manufacturers follow their guidelines. No worries.
38 Special bullets range from around 90 grains to 200 grains in weight. 357 magnums shoot the exact same bullet weights and sizes.
Pressure inside the 38 Special case runs about 17,000 psi (and is pretty much independent of the bullet weight). That is the pressure the cartridge works at. Lighter bullets get higher velocities and heavier bullets go slower. (90 grain bullets run out the barrel at 1200 to 1300 fps (feet per sedond), 200 grain slugs around 850 fps). (Data is from one of my loading manuals)
Pressure inside the 357 Magnum case runs about 35,000 psi. 90 grain bullets get up to 1850 fps at that pressure and 200 grains about 1300 fps, maximum.
38 Special +p runs around 20,000 psi, but I don't know velocities.
Lighter bullets get driven faster than heavier bullets (at standard SAAMI pressures), so bullet weight will largely determine what velocity you get. Bullet construction and velocity are the primary determinants of how your bullet will perform on its target.
Solid bullets penetrate deep to vital organs. Expanding bullets (hollow points ans soft points) open up a large wound channel. If a bullet is not travelling fast enough, it won't expand.
For thin-skinned game, expanding bullets work best. The 125 grain hollow point you asked about is designed for such. (By the way, people fall into the "thin-skinned game" category) But it is a bit expensive for the target practice you will find necessary. So, buy cheaper rounds that hit to the same point of aim/impact as your primary ammunition for range practice. You will have to experiment around.
So, to address (but not answer your second question, since there is no one correct answer that fits all situations). No, 158 grains is not "stronger" than 125 grains. They each have their particular characteristics. The heavier bullets may produce more recoil though.
If I were shooting at someone wearing heavy clothing, the 125 grain might not penetrate far enough, then not expand when it did. The 158 grain will go deep, but on a lighter-clothed subject might pass through with little damage.
Again, my apologies for overloading my first post with excess, irrelevant and confusing information that did not answer your question. My bad.
Lost Sheep
What you have is one of the finest revolvers made....
The Smith model 19 is pretty dern near perfect.
There had/has been talk of the feed part of the barrel (part just in front of the cylinder) cracking from shooting a lot of 125gr 357 mag rounds...
keep in mind the number for the bullets you mentioned is the weight of the bullet not the amount of propellent (powder) So a lighter bullet, 125 compared to 158) is going to go much faster.
bottom line, you can shoot 38 special all day long in your pistol with out a worry... regardless of if it is +P or ++P or what ever. the only concern is getting some fowling in the cylinder that will make it difficult to chamber a 357 round because the casing is slightly longer... that's what cleaning is for.
Personally I love shooting 38s in a 357 mag. If you have to try shooting 357 mag in the pistol I would suggest 158gr rounds... I despise shooting 125gr or such... just is not fun for me... but then I'm a wimp when it comes to serious recoil.
The Smith model 19 is pretty dern near perfect.
There had/has been talk of the feed part of the barrel (part just in front of the cylinder) cracking from shooting a lot of 125gr 357 mag rounds...
keep in mind the number for the bullets you mentioned is the weight of the bullet not the amount of propellent (powder) So a lighter bullet, 125 compared to 158) is going to go much faster.
bottom line, you can shoot 38 special all day long in your pistol with out a worry... regardless of if it is +P or ++P or what ever. the only concern is getting some fowling in the cylinder that will make it difficult to chamber a 357 round because the casing is slightly longer... that's what cleaning is for.
Personally I love shooting 38s in a 357 mag. If you have to try shooting 357 mag in the pistol I would suggest 158gr rounds... I despise shooting 125gr or such... just is not fun for me... but then I'm a wimp when it comes to serious recoil.