Which is the best for ccw. I carry a keltec p11 9mm. I have heard and read the argue ments and know im asking the real experts, ( gun owners ). as far as killing power not just stopping power whats best. JHP or FMJ. All the arguments sorta make sense that clothing stoppes the hollow points from penatrating but are more likly to cause bleed out. and FMJ have nothing to clog up there fore penatrating deeper. What do the people who actually carry say.
Ammo
- Thread starter bspillman
- Start date
All of the aforementioned will do the job well--I use Hornady Critical Defense or Duty depending on the carry piece at the time (it's relative to barrel length).
FMJ is great provided you strike the perp in a vital area (absent compromise=CNS) but it tends to have far less traumatic effects on human tissue as opposed to HP ammo when penetrating (youtube gelatin tests as they are invaluable for corresponding illustration). Next, there is a chance FMJ will travel through its subject and strike an unintended secondary bystander/structure which could potentially cause problems with ambulance chasing attorneys
Of course, YMMV but I think most will concur with this as a general rule of thumb.
-Cheers
FMJ is great provided you strike the perp in a vital area (absent compromise=CNS) but it tends to have far less traumatic effects on human tissue as opposed to HP ammo when penetrating (youtube gelatin tests as they are invaluable for corresponding illustration). Next, there is a chance FMJ will travel through its subject and strike an unintended secondary bystander/structure which could potentially cause problems with ambulance chasing attorneys
Of course, YMMV but I think most will concur with this as a general rule of thumb.
-Cheers
Lost Sheep
New member
Two questions
What do you mean by "killing power not just stopping power"?
The "experts" most qualified to speak to your question about the science of wound ballistics (a subset of terminal ballistics) is probably Emergency Room Doctors or doctors who have served in a war zone (but they see fewer handgun wounds than rifle, schrapnel and concussive trauma). Your average gun owner is probably not all that experienced unless he has shot a lot of people.
Lost Sheep
What do you mean by "killing power not just stopping power"?
The "experts" most qualified to speak to your question about the science of wound ballistics (a subset of terminal ballistics) is probably Emergency Room Doctors or doctors who have served in a war zone (but they see fewer handgun wounds than rifle, schrapnel and concussive trauma). Your average gun owner is probably not all that experienced unless he has shot a lot of people.
Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep,
I agree with you that 'real-life' shooting data is an obvious indicator of potential ballistic effectiveness. So if one has access to such, please post links or the like for further edification. Absent this, however, the best publicly 'available' data I am aware of (and depend on relative to my choice of hd/sd/ccw load) are the 'reputable'
gelatin tests we find on youtube, boxoftruth etc.
Still, I have to say that after years of novice-like research from a civilian shooter's perspective I have concluded that there is no empirical absolutes regarding any 'best' load or even caliber for that matter--While this results in extreme perplexity for me, it's one of those ever-elusive matters that makes life interesting and, yet, complex. I never tire of researching shootings whereby a .25 acp kills perp straight-up while a .45 acp passes-through causing only a superficial wound (these are extreme examples and certainly not categirical but I'm just saying...)
In the end and what it all means for me is that I just load my mags with what I have concluded is the best choice as there is no 2+2=4 every time in ballistics.
-Cheers
I agree with you that 'real-life' shooting data is an obvious indicator of potential ballistic effectiveness. So if one has access to such, please post links or the like for further edification. Absent this, however, the best publicly 'available' data I am aware of (and depend on relative to my choice of hd/sd/ccw load) are the 'reputable'
gelatin tests we find on youtube, boxoftruth etc. Still, I have to say that after years of novice-like research from a civilian shooter's perspective I have concluded that there is no empirical absolutes regarding any 'best' load or even caliber for that matter--While this results in extreme perplexity for me, it's one of those ever-elusive matters that makes life interesting and, yet, complex. I never tire of researching shootings whereby a .25 acp kills perp straight-up while a .45 acp passes-through causing only a superficial wound (these are extreme examples and certainly not categirical but I'm just saying...)
In the end and what it all means for me is that I just load my mags with what I have concluded is the best choice as there is no 2+2=4 every time in ballistics.
-Cheers
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psychohellbilly666
New member
One thing I've always been taught to keep in mind and it's true for target practice. The distance at which you would be justified to use deadly force. Far less than 25 yards. Now I'm no ammo expert and please correct me if I'm wrong but the distance being what it is you will still have most velocity on impact. The length of the barrel impacts the velocity as well. All that said any hollow point should penetrate far enough for damage. I have tried most hollow points and for the money I carry the Winchester white box hollow points. Cheap enough to practice with also. 14 dollars for 50 rounds. I refuse to carry Remington golden sabers though. The reason is bullet set back. I have had terrible luck with that on those. I have heard rave reviews on the Winchester rangers though.
Aiming (no pun intended) for killing power is just plain stupid. You can effectively kill someone and not stop them.
Yes, I know, it sounds contrary, but hear me out. You put a bullet into their liver and they are dying, but before they die, they shoot you, your wife, your dog, and anybody that looks like you.
OR...
You put two in the chest and they drop, and survive the ride to the ambulance, and you live to have your day in court.
Pick one.
Yes, I know, it sounds contrary, but hear me out. You put a bullet into their liver and they are dying, but before they die, they shoot you, your wife, your dog, and anybody that looks like you.
OR...
You put two in the chest and they drop, and survive the ride to the ambulance, and you live to have your day in court.
Pick one.
Critical Defense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U98lvj_cXY&feature=player_embedded
Critical Defense provides reliable expansion every single time.
Inconsistent and unreliable performance from conventional hollow point bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U98lvj_cXY&feature=player_embedded
Critical Defense provides reliable expansion every single time.
Inconsistent and unreliable performance from conventional hollow point bullets.
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Rampant_Colt
New member
There is no one absolute best; It most certainly isn't Hydra-Shok or Critical Defense, either.. The cartridge that positively feeds and is most accurate from your pistol is the best choice. The ammo choice issue is made even more complex by the lack of credible research and the wealth of uninformed opinions regarding what is commonly referred to as "stopping power".
Pick one from the recommended list below. The one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits your likely engagement scenarios.
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
The 147gr Golden Saber, Gold Dot, HST and Ranger-T all feature excellent feed profiles, excellent terminal ballistics with deep penetration equal to or better than 124gr and 127gr bullets weights, without the muzzle blast and heavy recoil commonly associated with +P+ loads
Pick one from the recommended list below. The one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits your likely engagement scenarios.
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Don't believe the marketing BS.
The 147gr Golden Saber, Gold Dot, HST and Ranger-T all feature excellent feed profiles, excellent terminal ballistics with deep penetration equal to or better than 124gr and 127gr bullets weights, without the muzzle blast and heavy recoil commonly associated with +P+ loads
I did a lot of research before buying my current HD gun
9mm is as good as any pistol caliber in real world shooting data. There is no advantage to 45 over 9mm (or anything in between including magnum revolver rounds)
A pistol round is not a one shot stop (its the best you can do with the need not to carry something more lethal like a shotgun or a rifle).
The old wisdom no longer applies. Clogged hollow points are not a factor (at least in a name brand self defensive round).
Basically the science and engineering have created bullets that are so close in lethality in the HD/SD ammunition that caliber is not relevant (if you can shoot it well and place your shots you have maximized your chances of a successful outcome).
You shoot and keep shooting until you have hit something that stops the person you are shooting at. It may be heart, nervious system, a main vein or artery.
FMJ is the worst thing you can load in your gun (unless its an older gun that will not shoot modern HPs)
You also do not want the LEO type barrier penetrating rounds. LEO may have a need for them, for HD or SD you do not.
9mm is as good as any pistol caliber in real world shooting data. There is no advantage to 45 over 9mm (or anything in between including magnum revolver rounds)
A pistol round is not a one shot stop (its the best you can do with the need not to carry something more lethal like a shotgun or a rifle).
The old wisdom no longer applies. Clogged hollow points are not a factor (at least in a name brand self defensive round).
Basically the science and engineering have created bullets that are so close in lethality in the HD/SD ammunition that caliber is not relevant (if you can shoot it well and place your shots you have maximized your chances of a successful outcome).
You shoot and keep shooting until you have hit something that stops the person you are shooting at. It may be heart, nervious system, a main vein or artery.
FMJ is the worst thing you can load in your gun (unless its an older gun that will not shoot modern HPs)
You also do not want the LEO type barrier penetrating rounds. LEO may have a need for them, for HD or SD you do not.
RC20,
I agree almost 100% with your statements. However, there is nothing empirical about anyone's opinion regarding ballistics (no matter how much some of them want us to believe) so I would suggest that you first preface your post with a IMO or otherwise be prepared...
.
-Cheers
I agree almost 100% with your statements. However, there is nothing empirical about anyone's opinion regarding ballistics (no matter how much some of them want us to believe) so I would suggest that you first preface your post with a IMO or otherwise be prepared...
.-Cheers
In the worst case a JHP won't expand. In the best case a FMJ won't expand.
Pick a JHP. Buy about 300 rounds and try 250 of them out in your gun using one (maybe two) magazines. If they are 100% reliable in feeding and firing save the last 50 for carry with the same magazines used for testing.
If you change mags, recoil spring, etc, buy another 300 rounds and test again.
Or carry a revolver.
Pick a JHP. Buy about 300 rounds and try 250 of them out in your gun using one (maybe two) magazines. If they are 100% reliable in feeding and firing save the last 50 for carry with the same magazines used for testing.
If you change mags, recoil spring, etc, buy another 300 rounds and test again.
Or carry a revolver.
Maybe I am being naive, but I am less worried about what I shoot than how I shoot. If I pull on someone, I intend to fire, unless they change course as soon as I pull. And once I start firing, I won't stop between shots to see the result. I will stop when the person falls, or I run out of ammo. I will only fire if me or my family is in emminent danger, and at that point I will save my life or my family first, and worry about legal ramifications later. The guy will likely die, or I will trying to kill him.
I realize that some of the vendors don't recommend +P ammo or certain grains specs either--but that's just a disclaimer IMO meaning that it's not recommended for regular range use. I just fire a few boxes of whatever I intend on using for my defensive go-to load to ensure reliability--I don't think that will hurt your gun at all. Then use wallyworld, american eagle etc. for general practice.
-Cheers
-Cheers