Ammo: Old vs. New

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Webleymkv

New member
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326244

This thread got me thinking, do you use older or newer bullet designs in your SD guns? I'm actually a bit of a mix myself. My 9mm, .45 and 10mm are loaded with newer designs (SXT, HST, and XTP respectively) but my other guns are loaded with older designs (Remington semi-jacketed HP's for the magnum revolvers, FMJ or Silvertips for the .32, and HBWC for the .38 Snubby). I guess for the ones that I carry older ones in, I haven't found any newer design that offers a significant improvement. That being said and before I get flamed over the wadcutters, my .38 is limited to standard pressure ammo and most .38 HP's that I can use either don't reliably expand, don't adequately penetrate, or would have more recoil than I'd like from an aluminum-frame revolver. With wadcutters, penetration is more than sufficient and recoil is light enough to make placement relatively easy.
 
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Old here

I use lead bullets, SWCs in my pocket carry gun and other revolvers (357,44s, and 45 LCs) and 230 Grn cast LRN in my 45.
 
Heck, after reading that thread a few days ago, I felt old and obsolete. Funny how just because there's a "latest and greatest" out there, the "older" isn't very good anymore...:rolleyes:

I have Hydroshocks in my XD45ACP, Cor-Bons in the XD40, and a mix of Remington Golden Sabers and Federal Premium Hydroshocks in my 9mm. I'm pretty sure whomever makes the grave mistake in breaking in our home and threatening our lives will not be happy with the end result.
 
Old: LSWC-HP in .38 Spl and .44 Spl. Mostly because there are very few "new" loadings in these calibers. As a matter of fact, the one "new" (or "new-ish") loading I sometimes use in .38 is the 147gr +P+ HydraShok, which was designed to duplicate the performance of the 158gr LSWC-HP +P.

New: 165gr Golden Sabers in .357 Mag and 230gr Golden Sabers in .45ACP. Face it: the science of terminal ballistics as we know it today didn't even exist prior to the Miami Shootout. The FBI's barrier protocols and subsequent bullet designs are light years better than what existed beforehand. I use the GS because it's widely available and feeds in my gun; I could just as easily gone with another design and gotten similar performance.
 
A Combo for me:

9 MM CCW: I started using 124gr Golden Sabers. They shoot good out of my 9mm guns and they have a good performance record.

45ACP: I either use Hardball(80%) or Golden sabers. When I carry my 45's its Hardball. House gun its HPs

38SPL: LSWC-HP, they shoot good and out of a 2" gun they hit about as hard as anything.
 
I guess I'm just old or simply cheap, or both :rolleyes: but in my 45's I either use Remington Hard Ball or Remington standard velocity 230gr. JHP's, they both have the same POI & function perfectly in either & with the JHP's they are just a little more expantion than the ball.

Have never had to use it on anything other than a coyote so in real life I'm not sure of the JHP's performance on anything larger.
 
Mix here too...

Funny how just because there's a "latest and greatest" out there, the "older" isn't very good anymore.
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Yea, funny how the .45 LC will kill just as well today as it did when it was introduced...as will all the old black powder weapons.

I use a mix, I have a lot of older ammo that will do the job just as easy as the newer stuff I have. The BG won't know the difference either way.;)
 
old: I use lswchp+p, or cast wadcutters pushed as fast as I think is prudent in my Colt Cobra. I load 170 and 160 cast in .38 cases to +P+ levels for my S&W mod 60s and an older Colt. I shoot cast 230s or factory hardball in my autos and revolver, altho I still have some flying ashtrays I loaded up years ago and some (?) 200gr. hollow points that I loaded up a few months ago. The 396 gets a cast 180 that is still painful to shoot, and I have some speer or hornady 180hp I bought a few months ago for anti personel type stuff, altho I am mostly pro personel. in my SAA I shoot a sedate unsized 250gr Keith due to Colt's quaint tradition of sloppy chambers and tight barrels. My most recent N frame will be getting the same bullet sized over 17 or 17.5 gr of 2400. I don't have a clue what I will shoot in my newest, a Colt OP in 32WCF.
 
I use the remi LSWCHP in my 1964 Model 36 and dont feel undergunned that I dont have a bonded core bullet design capable of shooting through car doors;) I'm a private citizen trying to protect his family...I'm not a LEO serving warrents at crack houses so my needs are different.

I ran out of .40 155gr JHP's recently and found some federal classic hi-shok jhps (an older bullet design) super cheap at ammunitiontogo. Before ordering I posted this link http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326636 asking for opinions.The results were mixed. I decided to buy the "old" jhps anyway. I figure that if I do my part...the older jhp design should do its job!
 
Webleymkv

sounds to me like a good plan. some of the items you list, i use myself......ie the wadcutters (also semi wads).....they will penetrate and leave a sufficient wound opening
 
While a bullet, is a bullet, is a bullet; there have been improvements in bullet design over the past few years that I would say make these bullet better than their predecesors. Corbon DPX, Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are all examples of extremely reliable bullet designs, in all calibers, for anything you throw at them. They penetrate and expand very consistently, they do not plug up, and they have excellent weight retention. While other designs like the Hydra-shok and XTP are fine when the work properly, the problem is that they lack consistence. Personally, I want something that is going to work the same every time it is fired and these new bullet designs allow for that.
 
My preference for old vs. new depends a lot upon the caliber. For example, the 158grn Remington Semi-Jacketed Hollowpoints I use in my .357 Magnums are a rather dated design, but in all tests I've seen or conducted penetration is more than adequate and expansion is very consistent. The same applies to the 240grn Semi-Jacketed HP's in my .44 Magnum and the 200grn LSWCHP that I used to carry in .44 Special. When you're consistently getting good penetration and expansion, what more can you ask for? The .32 gets FMJ because I've yet to see a .32 HP that was able to reliably expand and penetrate adequately. The .45 gets HST mainly because I can get them for as good or better price than any other 230grn +P, but I really wouldn't feel too bad about carrying a more dated HP so long as it's 230grn. A 9mm, IMHO, requires top-notch ammo in order to be a good performer. I currently carry Winchester Ranger 127grn +P+, but would also carry Cor-Bon 125grn JHP +P or Black Hills 124grn JHP +P. The 10mm gets XTP's because they're loaded by Double Tap. The other bullets offered by Double Tap can have issues with over-expansion when driven at such high velocity, but the XTP's less agressive expansion characteristics mitigate this problem.
 
Using the Hydro Shocks +P+ in the .38. Gold Dots in the 9MM. The new bullets are supposed to be better. Being sable to hit what I want to makes the most sense to me.
 
In town, I use FMJ or Hornady JHP in my P85 and Hornady JHP in my Dan Wesson .357 revolver.

In the field, I load HBWC backwards in the Dan Wesson.

Pops
 
I handload all my ammo.

Old bullets:
7.62x25...100gr Hornady .30 cal half-jacket plinkers
9mm Para...125gr hard cast LRN
.38 Special...158gr hard cast SWC
.357 Mag...158gr hard cast SWC
.45 ACP...230gr hard cast LRN
.45 Colt...255gr Hard cast RN-FP

New Bullets:
9mm Para...124gr Rem Golden Saber
.357 Mag...180gr Hornady HP-XTP
.45 ACP...230gr Rem Golden Saber
 
Latest technology improves, or a least maintains, reliable feeding, and improves (sometimes greatly) the ability of the bullet to expand to larger diameter while penetrating the same clothing barriers that used to prevent reliable expansion.

HST and CorBon DPX are two new ones that come to mind. Golden Saber is not new, but has always worked. Gold Dot HP's also work well.

None the less, there are those that will never be convinced that Wally World generic "budget ammo" won't protect their lives just as well. Who are these people, you ask?:) Well, the ones who rely on the "budget ammo" and won't spend the money on ammo that might better save their lives.



Now I'm prepared for the onslaught of "it's where you hit them that counts" posts that normally follow attempts to "culturize" the non believers.:D
 
onslaught of "it's where you hit them that counts" posts
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Well let me start the "onslaught":D Just kiddin!

Seriously, I think everyone should carry what they are comfortable with and shoot accurately. In my SIG P220 I have .45+P HST's. In my .357's, .40 and 9mms I like Gold Dots. In my M36 I carry the Remi "FBI load". In my keltec Sub2k I like 155gr JHP's. Previously, I was using magtech 155's, now I'm going to try the "old" federal hi-shoks. If they perform like the magtechs and gain ~150-175fps from the 16" barrel, they will be moving at ~ 1300-1325fps abd have ~600lbs of energy. Even an old design like that will let some goblin KNOW that I'm thinkin about him;)
 
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