Ammo accuracy at 20 ft question

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RAfiringline

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I've been assuming that shooting a handgun at 20 ft, the ammo won't play much of a role in group sizes.

My thinking is that it's mostly the shooter, a small input from the gun, and the smallest input from the quality of the ammo.

Does that sound right to others? At the range, I mostly use Freedom 9mm reloads.

Thanks
 
It depends.

If it's factory new ammo of the kind you usually see in big box stores, most popular brands will shoot well enough where you will not notice a practical difference at 7 yards ( about your distance) versus premium ammo.

However that is assuming: your gun doesn't dislike that ammo for whatever reason. That's why I said factory ammo. Winchester white box, blazer, PMC, wolf, Tula, s&B, all those typically do about the same in my guns at 7 yards or less.

However sometimes you will get a gun like one of mine: an out of production Italian service pistol made in the 80's that does not group well with FMJ and only shoots well with lead bullets with a long bearing surface. So when we talk about hand loading or reloading ammo, then variables like powder selection, powder charge, bullet weight, and burn rate have the potential to create a mismatch with a given pistol.


In general premium self defense rounds are supposedly held to tighter standards with regards to bullet weight, shape/size consistency and powder charge so they are thought to produce more consistent groups at 25 yards than practice ammo if the shooter is up to the task. you will see people post their best group of several for the day and usually it will be around 4 inches on up (remember most groups are bigger or they wouldn't bother showing the small one), sometimes 2 or so with Luck and a customized pistol (and a rest, maybe a scope) My eyes won't really allow for that. And with gun magazines sometimes they will use a ransom rest and their group sizes are miraculously small. So don't get hung up on group size at 25 yards unless you want to be.

I would agree with your variables but exceptions/lemons don't follow a ranking order. I'd also create another category and that is whether the gun (mostly bore diameter) prefers a given load regardless of level of quality of that ammo. An expensive undersized copper jacket hollow point bullet would not do as well as a slightly oversized lead projecticle all things else being equal. If your gun loves the reloads - great! I wouldn't hesitate to try a couple other brands though and actually measure group size since For side by side comparisons. This is after someone has their fundamentals down well enough to be a consistent shooter otherwise how do you know it's the ammo and not you? An instructor or very experienced friend (who has good fundamentals) can test fire a few rounds to compare.

In most cases ammo is not responsible for shots low and to the left or low and to the right for lefties. Nor is it for shots way low at 7 yards.
 
My own experience is that like rifles pistols can have "preferences" in regards to ammo. However like you said unless we are talking about significant distances you may never notice those differences. For me, 15 yds is when I start noticing differences in ammo quality. Of course some of that is likely my own reaction to the power factor of certain types of ammo. I try to find ammo that had a similar POI as the ammo I carry.
 
At 7yds.I really(just me) can't see much,maybe a little,difference in group size.As I age I realize I've become the limiting factor,not my equipment.I do practice and choose my SD bullets wisely. :D
 
If your pistol is mechanically 2 inches accurate at 25 yards with one ammo and 4 inches with another ammo that would translate into roughly .56 inch and 1.12 inches at 7 yards or .56 inch difference. IMO not much difference for general practice. If you are shooting really slow to try and get the best group possible then maybe it could make enough difference to you.
 
It may depend on whether you're talking about factory ammo only, or allowing handloads in the comparison. I've taken a 1/2 dozen different handloads to the range (for the same gun) and found wild differences in accuracy. The thread '45 Win Mag' in this forum includes photos of about 5 different groups just shot recently where that occurred. In those examples, group sizes varied from under 3" at 15 yds to well over 12" at that same distance (offhand). Clearly a 12" 'group' is wild-and-crazy behavior that can't be blamed on the gun, and I'm sure not taking the blame for it :).

I've seen significantly different group sizes with factory ammo as well--not as dramatic as the example above, but still, groups half the size of others depending on the ammo. AN example that comes to mind was Remington UMC factory ammo in 10mm Auto absolutely blowing away the other stuff I had--and at the moment I can't remember if it was Prvi Partisan, Fiocchi or what. In that case it was something like 1-1/2" groups vs 3" groups at 15 yds (offhand).

I'd say the gun comes last in all cases, though, in terms of what's to blame. At least, I'd be unwilling to the blame the gun until I'd exhausted all other possibilities, and to do that I'd have to see multiple different factory loads shot by multiple shooters all acting up. Then the first thing I'd check for would be an adjustable rear sight or mounted sight that was noticeably loose--if that had been overlooked from the git-go. I mention that because I stupidly assumed I was just having an inexplicable bad day that was getting worse, packed up the range bag and went home in frustration. Only when I went to clean the gun did I find the rear sight was about to fall off.
 
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I've been assuming that shooting a handgun at 20 ft, the ammo won't play much of a role in group sizes.

My thinking is that it's mostly the shooter, a small input from the gun, and the smallest input from the quality of the ammo.

Does that sound right to others? At the range, I mostly use Freedom 9mm reloads.
Click to expand...

The best way to answer your question is to cease assuming you know the answer. Buy a few boxes of some factory ammo. Something other than the inexpensive factory reload you've been using and shoot that some. Keep track of your shooting and your groups.

The quality of the ammo does make a difference. It is not always the smallest factor.

But see that for yourself and not at just 7 yards. Assume less and shoot more.

tipoc
 
Nice to know that, here at the Firing Line, you can expose yourself and ask a simple question, and take a sound beating for it.
 
This place is mild compared to many other gun sites. Ya need to have alligator hide at some. Most of those guys know what their talkin' about, though. Good to just cull what info one needs.
 
>Nice to know that, here at the Firing Line, you can expose yourself and ask a simple question, and take a sound beating for it.<

I don't feel beaten.

I got my question competently answered in the first few posts, and until I can consistently shoot less than 2" groups at 20 ft, freehand, I'm going to continue to assume that the ammo is playing much less of a role than my freehand shooting skills are.
For bench shooting, for greater distances, then obviously it's a different situation.
 
>Nice to know that, here at the Firing Line, you can expose yourself and ask a simple question, and take a sound beating for it.<

I don't feel beaten.
Click to expand...

That's cause you know how to not take blunt advice as a personal insult. You asked a legitimate question and got legitimate answers. :cool:
 
As stated above. It is 20 feet. Different ammo might hit slightly different. But, between shot groups of the same ammo, it likely isn't going to equal an ant -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-'s difference. God Bless
 
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