FirstFreedom
Moderator
Commercial claims to show the 1,000th shot without cleaning... better than pyrodex or triple-7?
American Pioneer powder?
- Thread starter FirstFreedom
- Start date
That was done under very controlled conditions. Real world results won't even be close. Besides, cleaning is no big deal anyway. I shoot real black powder and I can clean up any of my muzzleloaders faster than I can my centerfires. Swabbing in the field is no big deal either, and if you use the right lube, you really don't even need to do that, or at least not very often.
I'm using APP in my Pietta Remingtons (one .44, one .31) right now. It works fine, and fouling seems minimal except where there was oil to catch it. APP is odd in that they recommend not using any lube at all, claiming that grease will actually increase fouling with their project, and that it doesn't need any lubrication anyway.
It does clean up very easily.
I have two irks against APP. First is that it is a weak powder, generally giving lower velocities than other substitutes or original black. The second is that they have not answered my two inquiries about whether or not I should be using lubed wads or grease, for chain-fire prevention, when using their product in my revolver. On the one hand, they say don't use grease. On the other hand, a lot of people say you should use grease, or a lubed wad, for safety reasons.
Of course, in a world full of gosh-darned ambulance chasers--
(What's the difference between a lawyer and a carp? Answer: One is a slimy, cold-blooded, bottom-feeding scavenger. The other is a fish.)
--they probably couldn't answer that question. Right now I'm shooting the stuff using pre-lubricated wool felt wads between powder and ball, but once I've used those up I think I will risk shooting without them for a while. Just as a research project, you understand. If I get blowed up I'll have to post here and tell you all about it.
It does clean up very easily.
I have two irks against APP. First is that it is a weak powder, generally giving lower velocities than other substitutes or original black. The second is that they have not answered my two inquiries about whether or not I should be using lubed wads or grease, for chain-fire prevention, when using their product in my revolver. On the one hand, they say don't use grease. On the other hand, a lot of people say you should use grease, or a lubed wad, for safety reasons.
Of course, in a world full of gosh-darned ambulance chasers--
(What's the difference between a lawyer and a carp? Answer: One is a slimy, cold-blooded, bottom-feeding scavenger. The other is a fish.)
--they probably couldn't answer that question. Right now I'm shooting the stuff using pre-lubricated wool felt wads between powder and ball, but once I've used those up I think I will risk shooting without them for a while. Just as a research project, you understand. If I get blowed up I'll have to post here and tell you all about it.
It's very potent in rifles, but I'd only recommend the fffg granulation because the ffg granules are too chunky.
While some folks have claimed that it seems to shoot weaker, in part that's probably because it doesn't produce the noticiably sharper felt recoil of 777. Mec has previously posted some chronograph results and the velocity was comparable to other powders.
It does leave a very fine powdery residue which I found to be fairly easy to clean. But it probably should still be cleaned relatively promptly to not give the residue a chance to absorb moisture. But it could provide the shooter with some extra time to complete the chore. Overall, it's a substitute powder worth trying IMO.
While some folks have claimed that it seems to shoot weaker, in part that's probably because it doesn't produce the noticiably sharper felt recoil of 777. Mec has previously posted some chronograph results and the velocity was comparable to other powders.
It does leave a very fine powdery residue which I found to be fairly easy to clean. But it probably should still be cleaned relatively promptly to not give the residue a chance to absorb moisture. But it could provide the shooter with some extra time to complete the chore. Overall, it's a substitute powder worth trying IMO.
Jbar4Ranch
New member
The only bad thing about APP is the price. I go through about 15 pounds a year in rifle & revolver shooting Frontier Cartridge class in CAS, but use KiK black powder in shotgun. I can get KiK delivered to my door for nearly half what I pay for APP. My last order of APP (20 pounds) was $19.69 per pound delivered, and my last order of Kik just a month ago (25 pounds) was $10.30 per pound, up from $9.80 or so just a couple months ago. Prices on both include shipping & hazmat.
The best deal going on APP (which I found after my last order) is from "coinguy" on gunbroker.com. A twelve pound case for $193.90, delivered, which comes out to about $16.16 per pound. Go to gunbroker and keyword "American Pioneer Powder" or do a search on coinguy.
I've tried APP both with and without lube, and no lube at all works better. In my side by side comparisons with gennywine black powder, APP also generates even more smoke than black, but not a lot of flames, so for night shoots, I go with black.
The longest I've ever gone without cleaning is a ten stage CAS match + some side matches over a three day period, so say maybe three hundred rounds through the rifle, and maybe a couple hundred through each revolver. No problem with fouling, and super easy cleanup, just hot water and a little Dawn detergent, a toothbrush here and there for the tight spots, a couple patches through the bore & chambers, a thorough blow down with compressed air, and an oiled patch through the bores & chambers again.
The best deal going on APP (which I found after my last order) is from "coinguy" on gunbroker.com. A twelve pound case for $193.90, delivered, which comes out to about $16.16 per pound. Go to gunbroker and keyword "American Pioneer Powder" or do a search on coinguy.
I've tried APP both with and without lube, and no lube at all works better. In my side by side comparisons with gennywine black powder, APP also generates even more smoke than black, but not a lot of flames, so for night shoots, I go with black.
The longest I've ever gone without cleaning is a ten stage CAS match + some side matches over a three day period, so say maybe three hundred rounds through the rifle, and maybe a couple hundred through each revolver. No problem with fouling, and super easy cleanup, just hot water and a little Dawn detergent, a toothbrush here and there for the tight spots, a couple patches through the bore & chambers, a thorough blow down with compressed air, and an oiled patch through the bores & chambers again.I hope APP is good stuff, 'cause I've got my in-laws bringing me a pound of it next week, when they come to visit.
They have a Cabela's nearby, so I've asked 'em to do a little shopping for me, and save me shipping and Haz Mat fees.
A pound of FFFG goes for $19.95 at Cabela's, btw.
J.C.
They have a Cabela's nearby, so I've asked 'em to do a little shopping for me, and save me shipping and Haz Mat fees.
A pound of FFFG goes for $19.95 at Cabela's, btw.
J.C.
Jbar4Ranch
New member
Like all other components, it must have gone up a little in the past few months, because that's where my last lot came from and it came to $19.685 per pound with shipping and hazmat in November '06.
One pound only gives me 285 rounds of .44-40. A typical six stage match will use up ~120 rounds, so a pound only gets me through two matches plus the first couple stages of the next one. In .38's or .45acp's, a pound will yield 493 rounds.
One pound only gives me 285 rounds of .44-40. A typical six stage match will use up ~120 rounds, so a pound only gets me through two matches plus the first couple stages of the next one. In .38's or .45acp's, a pound will yield 493 rounds.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Yeah, PI lawyers suck, hafoc. If someone maims you due to their gross negligence, by gawd suck it up and be a man; heaven's sake, don't sue. Worse yet, certainly don't even think about representing some a-hole that comes in missing a limb and and eye caused by someone's recklessness, and asks you to sue on their behalf. That'd be *really* low. 
In other words, read between the lines.
http://www.sthopd.com/Images/Covert3Fingers3b-s.jpg
Now tell me what kind of "dishonest" work you do for a living, so I can directly insult you back.
In other words, read between the lines.http://www.sthopd.com/Images/Covert3Fingers3b-s.jpg
Now tell me what kind of "dishonest" work you do for a living, so I can directly insult you back.