America needs tort reform for lawful self-defense.

Valid points about conscription and how the winners write the rules, but I don't see how either applies to the idea being put forth that legal consequences should be the same no matter who you work for (govt/private).

Oher than the most general point that the government (who is the winner in wars) writes the rules for EVERYONE, in war and in peace.
 
War crimes & crimes against humanity notwithstanding...

If an agent of a legal government -- acting IAW the legal rules, training & procedures of that gov't -- causes injury in the course
of actions which he has a legal duty to perform, why would the agent be personably held liable and not the the gov't ?

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44 AMP said:
Valid points about conscription and how the winners write the rules, but I don't see how either applies to the idea being put forth that legal consequences should be the same no matter who you work for (govt/private).

It illustrates the point that we may do something because it is the best solution we've found, even if it has problems.

That a government agent may injure someone is a problem. Having that agent answer a civil complaint as if he were not a government agent solves one problem and introduces a different problem to the basic operation of a sovereign government by disregarding its sovereign character.

Governments do recognize that telling every last person with a claim to get bent is a problem, so Congress has some guidelines that allow some claims, and states have courts of claim for the tiny universe of cases states choose to allow, but it isn't anything like the claim one can file against those subject to the decisions of the sovereign.
 
This was pretty much my point, that you don't sue the individual actor when the govt is the responsible party for what happens.

There is a degree of logic to the point that no matter if an agent of the state or as private citizen, it is the individual who pulls the trigger. HOWEVER when someone is acting as an agent of the state (police, military, or "OGA") our government assumes the responsibility for their actions.

Provided that those actions are within approved rules, training and guidelines. When they are not, and the govt disapproves of them, then the individual who performed the unapproved actions is the responsible party.

In the postulated scenario, a cop shoots at a bad guy and strikes an innocent bystander vs. a private citizen defending themselves who shoots at a bad guy and strikes an innocent bystander, the physical act is the same. Someone who should not have been shot gets shot.

The rest of the situation is completely different, and is not treated the same under the law, and I think, correctly so. One can argue if the current way the law treats the incident is fair or just, or sufficient or insufficient, but I cannot see any basis for arguing that they are not different and so should be treated the same.
 
I think there is a lot of uninformed opinions about the court created doctrine of Qualified Immunity.

Justice Clarence Thomas' dissenting opinion in this case spells out quite well the history of how this doctrine was created and expanded by the judiciary:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-1287_09m1.pdf

The root of it is a law passed by legislature in the aftermath of the Civil War:
“any person who, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of any State, shall
subject, or cause to be subjected, any person within the
jurisdiction of the United States to the deprivation of
any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the
Constitution of the United States, shall . . . be liable to
the party injured in any action at law, suit in equity, or
other proper proceeding for redress . . . .” Act of Apr.
20, 1871, §1, 17 Stat. 13.
Put in simpler terms, §1 gave individuals a right to sue
state officers for damages to remedy certain violations of
their constitutional rights.

Somehow, over the next century the judiciary turned this on its head. Immunity was added bit by bit until now it is a blanket immunity for any government office holder. No lawmaker ever voted on this expansion. The Supreme Court has denied to hear cases challenging this doctrine.

It is a doctrine that grants immunity to violations of our constitutional rights. The only way to rectify that is through legislation.

My purpose here is to convince YOU that it needs to happen. Our policing has reached such an enormous disconnect between what should be 'law enforcement' to behavior that has people weaponizing the police against each other (SWATTING).

If by affording me the same protection as police that if I hit a bystander will cause me to be less judicious in my use of force, then the immunity afforded to police has encouraged them to ignore public safety and leads to incidents such as I linked previously of the NYPD shooting 9 bystanders while shooting at 1 suspect.
 
ghbucky said:
It is a doctrine that grants immunity to violations of our constitutional rights. The only way to rectify that is through legislation.

My purpose here is to convince YOU that it needs to happen.

Citing a dissent about qualified immunity in 1983 actions isn't likely to do that.

Where the state is a sovereign and I am not, liability found for my agents and me will always be without my consent, and any liability found for the sovereign and its agents will only be with its consent.

If by affording me the same protection as police that if I hit a bystander will cause me to be less judicious in my use of force, then the immunity afforded to police has encouraged them to ignore public safety and leads to incidents such as I linked previously of the NYPD shooting 9 bystanders while shooting at 1 suspect.

Emphasis added. I don't think anyone in this thread doubts that. If you believe that, then you also accept the reasoning of public policy that holds valid self-defenders liable for injuries they cause to third parties.

As to the issue of tort reform, would you agree that the WI code noted by Zeke gets us very far toward a viable curb on civil actions by criminals against self-defenders?

https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2012/chapter-895/section-895.62/
 
Not a lawyer so parsing that isn't easy for me, but what I read there is it is specific to unlawful entry into what I was taught is called the 'domicile'.

I would say that is fine, but doesn't go far enough. In KY, my understanding from my training is that if am legally allowed to use deadly force anywhere, then I am immune from civil liability from the person I used it against, or his estate/family. Actually, I thought that was pretty much any state with 'stand your ground' probably already has those protections in place. But I never researched it.

As to the dissent from 1983, the last 2 congresses have passed bills striking QI, so it is very much a current topic. This is part of Tort reform in general, AFAIC.

IMO, if you want true tort reform, then strip public officials from their immunity and they will get right on cleaning up our tort system. Until they are subject to the same insanity we are, why would they care?
 
Sovereign immunity is a complex topic and manifests itself in various ways in various circumstances. A comprehensive discussion of sovereign immunity in the United States is well beyond the scope of this thread. If anyone is interested in beginning his (or her) study of the principle, here are links to a couple of articles that might help start him (or her) on the way: "Suing the Federal Government"; and "A Primer on the Doctrine of Federal Sovereign Immunity".

Second, the principle of sovereign immunity does not foreclose suing the government to challenge the validity or application of a law.

Third, we're here discussing primarily 42 USC 1983, a federal law that under certain circumstances allows suits for damages against government officials (thus limiting sovereign immunity). Other laws or judicial decisions might limit sovereign immunity (e. g., the Federal Tort Claims Act) in other circumstances, but discussion of those laws in also outside the scope of this thread.

But to return to the subject matter of this thread, the law being discussed, 42 USC 1983, is an example of a conscious erosion by government of sovereign immunity. Again, 42 USC 1983 provides:
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, ...

By expressly permitting suits against government personnel when their conduct amounts to a "deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws", the statute effectively waives sovereign immunity with respect to that sort of misconduct. And in that way government officials are held accountable for their misdeeds if they deprive one of "any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws."

The case law defining Qualified Immunity under 42 USC 1983 is really about defining what conduct is or is not permissible under the Constitution. It is not about escaping liability for wrongful acts. It's about defining when conduct is wrongful and when it is not.

So let's look at a couple of examples of the application of qualified immunity principles in a 42 USC 1983 action against an LEO based on alleged excessive force. In the cases cited the application of qualified immunity is related to the question of the reasonableness of the LEO's use of force and the necessity of that force in light of a manifest lethal threat to either the officer or others.

So, for example, in Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 105 S.Ct. 1694, 85 L.Ed.2d 1 (1985), the Supreme Court rejected a claim of qualified immunity noting (at 20-21):
....In reversing, the Court of Appeals accepted the District Court's factual conclusions and held that "the facts, as found, did not justify the use of deadly force." 710 F.2d, at 246. We agree. Officer Hymon could not reasonably have believed that Garner—young, slight, and unarmed—posed any threat. Indeed, Hymon never attempted to justify his actions on any basis other than the need to prevent an escape. The District Court stated in passing that "[t]he facts of this case did not indicate to Officer Hymon that Garner was 'non-dangerous.' " App. to Pet. for Cert. A34. This conclusion is not explained, and seems to be based solely on the fact that Garner had broken into a house at night. However, the fact that Garner was a suspected burglar could not, without regard to the other circumstances, automatically justify the use of deadly force. Hymon did not have probable cause to believe that Garner, whom he correctly believed to be unarmed, posed any physical danger to himself or others....

On the other hand, in Mullenix v. Luna, 136 S. Ct. 305, 193 L. Ed. 2d 255 (2015), the Supreme Court in finding qualified immunity noted (135 S. Ct., at 310):
....This Court has considered excessive force claims in connection with high-speed chases on only two occasions since Brosseau . In Scott v. Harris, 550 U.S. 372, 127 S.Ct. 1769, the Court held that an officer did not violate the Fourth Amendment by ramming the car of a fugitive whose reckless driving "posed an actual and imminent threat to the lives of any pedestrians who might have been present, to other civilian motorists, and to the officers involved in the chase." Id., at 384, 127 S.Ct. 1769. And in Plumhoff v. Rickard, 572 U.S. ––––, 134 S.Ct. 2012, 188 L.Ed.2d 1056 (2014), the Court reaffirmed Scott by holding that an officer acted reasonably when he fatally shot a fugitive who was "intent on resuming" a chase that "pose[d] a deadly threat for others on the road." 572 U.S., at ––––, 134 S.Ct., at 2022. ....

So in Garner the officer was not entitled to qualified immunity for his use of lethal force because he had no basis upon to reasonably believe that the subject posed an imminent lethal threat to the officer or others. On the other hand, in Mullenix the officers involved were entitled to qualified immunity because the use of lethal force could be justified by the actual and imminent danger the subject posed to others.
 
Used to deal with many gooberment officials/employees who thought they had blanket immunity. Largely before the City's, Townships, Village, and Counties got access to competent attorneys.

And as a state gooberment employee, have had the DOJ represent me. The DOJ used to say i was covered while acting within my position description or classification requirements. Unfortunately for some, that immunity didn't apply in some cases when they intentionally DIDN'T do their job, and someone was injured financially or physically.
 
zeke said:
And as a state gooberment employee, have had the DOJ represent me. The DOJ used to say i was covered while acting within my position description or classification requirements. Unfortunately for some, that immunity didn't apply in some cases when they intentionally DIDN'T do their job, and someone was injured financially or physically.
In my line of work, building officials are indemnified -- as long as they are trying to do their job properly. The actual language (empasis added):

The building official, member of the board of appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be civilly or criminally rendered liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of official duties.
 
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