Am I wasting my time?

F

FrankA

Inactive
I bought a 2004 Savage 110 in 7MM Rem Mag and have been reloading for it now for 3 years and have probably put 500-600 shots thru the barrel and I have no ides what was shot before I got it. It shoots well and with bullet weights from 110 to 180 I am usually able to find a load that will group less than an inch and some weight bullets less than 1/2 inch at 100 yd. I had recently read about copper fouling significantly deterirating accuracy after very few shots . I realized that the gun did seem to have a lot of copper fouling so I decided to treat it like a new gun by shooting 1 shot then thoroughtly clean(till no copper shows on the patches) and repeat for 10 shots then shoot 3 and repeat for several repititions then 5 then 10 shot groups . It took me all day (after first hanging treestands in the morning ) to do the first 10 shots . It did seem to decreasee the copper fouling by the 10th shot . But it looks like it will take several weekends to fiinish the process I had planned.
What do you all think , am I wasting my time?
Thanks and I really appeciate all the knowledge and help on the site
FrankA
 
If your rifle needs cleaning, clean it. If it is shooting as well as you say it is, perhaps leaving well enough alone is the better idea. In any case, the structured shoot-clean-repeat method does sound like a waste of time.
 
I think you're confusing a break-in technique with removing copper fouling.

To remove copper fouling, you need a product meant for the job. None of which I use, so I can not recommend.
 
I'd say if you're only getting 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with a 7mm magnum then you're wasting your time with this cleaning regime as the barrel has obviously deteriorated to a point beyond repair. Time to trade it.:D
 
I had the very same problem with my Vanguard, and I did the "manufactures advised barrel break in" when I first bought it, by the numbers, so your problem can be fixed easily.

I use Bore Tech Eliminator, to remove my copper fouling, it works! Also I don't worry about the fouling as much as I did, because the fouling didn't kill the rifles accuracy. I clean the rifle after each trip to the range, with Eliminator, the I scrub the barrel with JB's Bore Paste. I have seen quite the performance perk as well as ease in cleaning with just a few sessions, so you might try that also.
I thought it was a particular bullet fouling my bore but found that most bullets foul my bore,,, this problem will work itself out in time, and meanwhile it shoots very well and that's everything I can ask for!!:)
 
I was attempting to polish the barrel as with the break in process I described . From what I have read the break in process is to polish the bore so it accumulates less copper. I have a good copper cleaner ( Kroils) and that is not the problem. I hsd read that the reason the barrel collects too much copper are irregularities from manufacturing which is where the copper accumualtes . By firing once then getting all the copper and powder residue out that allows the bullet to polish the bore and "girind" down those irregulariites so less copper accumulates. It shots well but one always wonders if you adjust something ( bullet , primer, , load , case. COL, barrel polish , stc, etc , etc ) could it do even better.
Thanks for the input
Frank
 
Oh!

I read your original post to indicate that you're shooting more bullets as a way to remove existing fouling.

Yes, what you need to do is to thoroughly clean any existing copper and then you can use a "break-in" procedure as you describe.

There is considerable disagreement as to the necessity and affect of this "break-in" but I've always done it with all my rifles.

My method is to clean after every shot for the first 10, then after number 15 and number 20, and then to use the gun as normal. There are many methods and just as many arguments as to why it is or is not all a waste of time, with recognized expert barrel makers on both sides of the argument.
 
Kroil really??? Hey dude, I have spent alot of time and money, fighting copper fouling. I think if you have a "copper fouling" problem, you should try a "copper fouling" type bore cleaner. And the JB's works!;)
 
An accurate rifle will tell you when it's time to clean because the groups will open up. As long as it's shooting well, you SHOULD NOT clean the bore.

I am speaking only of loads that are non-corrosive here. NOT old or imported corrosive ammo. If you fire anything corrosive you should clean after every firing session. The 7mm Mag has never been loaded by any factory in its history with corrosive primers or powder, so unless you managed to find some old WW2 era primers to reload with, it’s about 99.999% a sure thing all you ammo is non-corrosive.
 
But how do you tell when a barrel is fouled with copper when you are doing load testing, since ther groups may be inconsistent from the loads and not the barrel fouling ? If you start with a clean barrel , shoot a couple of fouling shoots then shoot 3-5 shot groups with your starting load , it could already be fouled enough to affect the accuracy of the load. I use the OCW method to find the best load so hopefully this is not so much of an issue but I can not help but wonder. I just read that even with 3-5 shots the groups start to open up, but you would only know this if you were just shooting one load repeatedly and you would not knowing shooting multiple different loads. In load testing , do you clean after 5-7 shots and start all over with the same process or just keep going thru your increasing loads . This article has alot of the info I am referring to : http://www.shootingsoftware.com/fouling.htm.
The "Kroils" which I referred to in my prior reply which I use is the KG12 or if I do not have it I will use 10% ammonia, which are the best copper cleaners per the tests I have seen : http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm copper testing

http://www.thesacskit.com/kg/KG12testresults.asp
 
I think you're over thinking it, my friend.
Do the barrel break-in as they describe (if that's the method you want to use) and then don't worry about it unless you see a problem developing.

I literally do not own and have never owned true copper remover. I use Eezox to clean and lube all my guns. That's all the chemicals they see. I've never had a problem.

My Ruger M77 MkII chambered in 204Ruger has several hundred rounds through it, having never seen a drop of copper remover. It shoots consistent 1/2-2/3 MOA easily, better when I do my part.

I've never had a rifle that didn't do roughly the same thing. Maybe not 1/2 MOA but consistent and 1 or less, always.
 
If you really want to polish the barrel, I would suggest you fire lap the barrel.
Do a google search and you will see how to do it. It's fairly simple and most effective, I have found. And makes cleaning a breeze.
 
Kroil really??? Hey dude, I have spent alot of time and money, fighting copper fouling. I think if you have a "copper fouling" problem, you should try a "copper fouling" type bore cleaner. And the JB's works!
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Actually if used correctly Kroil does a great job will soak through and allow easy removal of copper and dirt and I do agree that JB is a good product.

Fire lapping is something to consider and I've seen it help some rough barrels.

Another new product that helps with the cleaning process is Hodgon CFE223powder, I'm now using in 223 and 204 with excellent results in accuracy and ease of cleaning.
 
Thinking too much

Brian Pfleuger "I think you're over thinking it, my friend. "

Sorry , that's what I do with everything ! Can't help myself.I appreciate the input . The Eezox looks like a very interesting product and I will also try the JB product. Again I appreciate the thoughts and help
Frank
 
Go easy with the JB compound. I used to use it once in a great while, but that's like sandpapering your bore and I don't think that's a good idea. Now that I've gone to Boretech Eliminator for copper removal, I can't imagine that I even have a need to keep any JB Compound in my cleaning box. By the time that I've used the Carbon Killer and the Boretech Eliminator, there's nothing left in my bore. I'm actually wondering now if maybe I'm overcleaning the bore. Maybe removing all the copper isn't the best answer. Consider that I'm talking about factory barrels here and not custom hand lapped barrels. Anyway, at this point I'm just wondering about the benefits (or not) of total copper removal. I don't have enough information (from my guns, their shooting and their cleaning) to have a firm opinion. The competitive shooters may have an answer, but they aren't shooting factory barrels, so their answer might not be my answer.
 
I should clarify a bit.... In your situation, with agin of on known history, I'd clean the copper out thoroughly first.

Bore tech Eliminator is apparently a good product, as is KG12.

Then I'd do the chosen break-in procedure.
 
( 1st off, I'm not a bench rest shooter... but I do load & shoot over 75 different calibers, many magnum rifles, & I have my own 300 yard range )

IMO, if your magnum rifle has 500 + ish rounds through it, it's likely already at or close to 1/2 life... it should easily have been both shot & cleaned enough to remove any manufacturing roughness...

I personally like Kroil, I don't use it as a copper remover, but it's what I oil my barrel with before storage, it soaks into the steel, & helps to prevent the redisposition of copper during your next shooting session... a 7 mm Magnum is prone to copper foul just by the nature of the cartridge...

so... yes, I think you are wasting you time with the re-break-in of your barrel, I would definately not recommend fire lapping your barrel at this point in it's life... IMO, you need to find a longer range ( 100 yards with the 7 mag, it too close to even get a boat tail bullet fully stabilized ) & see what you can do & how you can tweak you tightest loads at longer distances...

continue to clean afterwards with a copper solvent, & Kroil before putting it away for the day, & enjoy your rifle for the remaining 500-750 rounds
 
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