Am I asking too much? Reloading .308 for Savage M99

A

Alpsman

Inactive
Howdy, First time posting - hoping for answers an recommendations.

I am shooting a Savage M99E (short barrel) and reloading .308 w 41.8gr IMR 4895 (higher charges were all over the paper) @ 100yds.

Pretty tight group at 50yd - but was shooting low and spread out - hitting low initially. Adjusted the sights and need to correct some windage, as I was shooting slightly Right. (see pic)

Am I obsessing over the spread you see circled "after adjustments"? Thinking of trying dropping my charge to the lowest; 40.0 gr and seeing if I can get a tighter group.

Question is - is this the best /tightest group I am going to get with this rifle?
My 7mm Rem mag is a nail driver @ 100,but that has a longer barrel and the trigger was worked on .

Thanks!

Alpsman
 

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Check the Nosler and Lyman Handloading books. Both of them list what they consider the most accurate load. Start low and increase the load by 0.4 grain at a time. Once you determine what powder and how much to use, very the seating depth to determine how deep to seat the bullets.
 
I had to buy new small base dies to reload .308 for my Savage 99. My regular .308 dies wouldn't size cases down enough to chamber. they were RCBS dies. hdbiker
 
What sights? If you're shooting irons, that's not bad. As I recall, my 99 in 300 Savage does a little better, but not much, and it has a tang mounted aperture. Cooling the barrel between shots? Heating could cause stringing. You don't mention a chronograph. Might want to run the load over one and get the Std. If it is particularly high, that would also string your shots out.

PS: What bullet? Sometimes you find one your rifle likes, sometimes not.
 
The "after adjustment" group looks to be 5 shots in about 2". At 100yds, that is minute of whitetail or other big game animal.

What's wrong with that?? It's a DEER RIFLE. :D

A Savage 99 is one of best lever guns ever done, but its not a bolt action in a one piece stock with a tuned trigger. And, its not meant to be.

Don't obsess over group size especially 5 shot groups from that rifle. 3 shot groups are a more sensible choice from a deer rifle.

It's not a benchrest gun, don't expect it to be.

Consider this, with your group centered around your point of aim, a 2" group means that every shot will be, at most, 1" off from your point of aim. IF THAT.

Clearly the rifle shoots well enough with the load you used. You might get some improvement with a different bullet (a flat base might surprise you) or a different powder, there are several other IMR powders suitable for the .308, and there are also many non-IMR type powders as well.

You MIGHT find one, or more that your rifle shoots a bit better than what you are currently using. You might not. Only shooting will tell.

Expecting sub 1" 5-shot groups from a stock Savage 99 isn't realistic. You might get it, sometimes the stars line up but you shouldn't expect it.
 
I'm convinced the 308 will shoot inside half MOA ES at 100 yards with 150 to 170 grain bullets with about 10% spread for a given charge weight of IMR4895 under good bullets the right diameter for the barrel's groove diameter. For 150 grain bullets, 45 or 41 grain charges will shoot about the same size groups.

If everything else is up to it; rifle, human and environment.
 
Alpsman,
Your adjusted group has a horizontal spread of under 1 inch, which is very positive.
But the vertical spread is over 2 inches.
I would suspect that at least a significant part of the vertical variation is in inconsistency in your setup.

You didn't say whether you were shooting off hand or off a rest.
Without a rest, you might easily have vertical stringing shooting off-hand.
You didn't say whether you were shooting with a scope or with iron sights, but even with iron sights, moving in and out on the rear sight will move the POI up or down.

Before you start chasing powder and bullet combinations, you might see if a bit more concentration on ensuring the consistency of your set-up might give you improved results.

Then, when your 'shooter induced variation' is at its minimum, then you can search for the perfect powder-bullet combination.
I found that if didn't get my 'shooter induced variation' under control first, any gains from powder-bullet changes were masked by the 'shooter induced variation'.
 
Many, Many thanks for your comments and recommendations!

To add to what I should have said initially:

9x40 Zeiss Scope
Sierra Game King BT
Shooting off a solid bench table - concreted to range floor.
Shooting off a basic, inexpensive sled.

Really like the rifle - trigger is heavy though.

Thanks again!
 
If you're shooting off a bench with a scope, you might be creeping up on the scope a bit especially if the stock is a bit too short for you.
I have found with my Les Baer Super Varmint .223, a very accurate rifle that came with an A2 stock, but it turned out that the stock was a bit short for me.
I would put 2 rounds in the same hole and then get vertical stringing with each additional shot. Turns out that I was sneaking up on the scope as the rifle recoiled and the short stock didn't keep me from sliding forward.

I used a rolled piece of tape to check how much I was moving.
Turns out about 1/8th inch closer was moving the POI up by 1/4 inch.

After that experience, I am very careful to make sure my position hasn't moved.
Even after I changed the A2 to an adjustable Magpul match stock, I still check every round I fire with a scope to ensure that I am at the same eye relief.
After I am set, I move my head back just a bit until I see the black ring around the scope image.
1) I check that is it concentric (so I know I am in the optical center)
2) Then I move forward until the ring just disappears.
That puts me in the same position relative to the scope every time.

If you are very attentive to your position every time,you might be surprised how much your shooting will improve.
 
You may want to see if you can get something done about the trigger. A friend of mine had a light rifle with a 9 lb trigger he could not stay on a paper plate with at 100 yards. Getting it down to even to 5 lbs mad a huge difference. 9 just seems to be over a tolerance limit of some kind.
 
think about all that stuff hanging under the barrel of a lever action, doubt you will ever get bolt action accuracy. Then think about how much venison has been harvested with a 30-30 Marlin. You want to kill deer or shoot in BR competitions? My target rifles would truly suck in the woods
 
The Savage 99 doesn't have much hanging under the barrel but the forend. Unlike most Winchesters and Marlins, it uses a box magazine not a tube.

However, it does have a 2 piece stock, which doesn't mean it won't shoot well, it just means its less likely to shoot as well as a well bedded one piece stocked rifle.

Bench shooting a hunting rifle is informational, but not as important as shooting that rifle and loads from a field position. Standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone, the real test of a hunting rifle's accuracy is what the shooter can do with it in their hands, not off a sled on a bench.

You may have a sub MOA rifle off a bench, but if you can only do 3 MOA without the bench, then in your hands its a 3 MOA rifle.
 
Many thanks to all who replied. Wow, fantastic knowledge base and a friendly group to boot - thank you all.

I have come to accept what I was originally thinking; my M99 is not my long distance Ruger 7mm. My Savage M99 rifle is for the woods - for shots within 100yds, which was and is my plan. Probably too OCD with grouping.

That being said, I will continue to try and get it zero'd at 100 . . . or perhaps just 50yds, then practice shooting from a standing position. It will be my tree stand and still-hunting rifle.

I welcome any other thoughts, and thank you all very much!!

Alpsman
 
A rifle shooting a 2" group at 100yds is accurate enough to humanely take deer out to 300yds, IF the shooter is up to it; It requires proper aim AND proper range estimation, as well as compensating for any wind, but its not impossible.

And, of course, shorter shots are a bit easier.

9x40 Zeiss Scope
Click to expand...
You mean a 3x-9x variable scope, right??

100 . . . or perhaps just 50yds, then practice shooting from a standing position. It will be my tree stand and still-hunting rifle.
Click to expand...

IF its to be only a short range rifle, you might consider a different scope. 3x is plenty at closer ranges, and variables have a habit of being set too high when you need a fast shot on a moving target at close range.

Just finding a moving deer at close range in the 9x scope, in time to make a shot, is a challenge.

Look into a lower powered scope, either fixed or variable. There are some fine scopes in the 1-4x range, plenty accurate enough and faster to use. Also, the lower powered scopes are generally smaller and lighter, which might make a useful difference if when you're carrying the gun, or climbing a tree.

Also, when shooting from field positions, its fine to use what ever is handy and possible to use as a rest. Tree limb, rock, whatever might work, and it will help steady your aim.

DO NOT rest the barrel on anything. Rest the stock, or better yet, your arm with your hand holding the stock on the support.
 
44 AMP said:
Also, when shooting from field positions, its fine to use what ever is handy and possible to use as a rest. Tree limb, rock, whatever might work, and it will help steady your aim.

DO NOT rest the barrel on anything. Rest the stock, or better yet, your arm with your hand holding the stock on the support.
Click to expand...
Don't rest the stock fore end directly on anything hard. Especially if the barrel has fore end contact.

Put something soft between the fore end and the hard rest.
 
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44 AMP and Bart are spot on. As soon as I saw the group with vertical stacking I thought " probably resting the forend on something solid". Have had the same issue with a couple of rifles with 2 piece stocks. Try shooting from a soft pad or rolled up towel. Should reduce the vertical part of the group. Like was already mentioned, I would suggest shooting from field positions and see what the groups look like.
 
Yes, trigger job. 2nd, shoot flat base bullets. 3rd, I shoot a woods load of 42.0 H-4895 under a 150 Hornady or Corelokt into .5" all day long from my Rem 788. The ES is 21fps with a velocity of 2588.
 
I set a young woman up with a 300 Sav 99 .I put a gun show used 4x Leupold on it.
The rifle shot 165 gr handloads pretty good. I know 3 shot groups don't mean much,but she was keeping those inside two inches (about 1 1/2) at 100 yds,prone over a sandbag.

Every rifle is different. I don't know that I have the answer. I have a hunch.

The 99 and the 300Savage were made for each other. The 308 is nearly the same cartridge case with a longer neck.

And the 308 operates at a little higher pressure. My hunch? It might be if you detune a bit toward the intensity of a 300 Savage,the 99 MIGHT? be happier.

On easy way to find out.
 
41.8 grains of IMR4895 is .8 above the Start load for 168 grain bullets. It's almost a full grain under current minimum for a 150. You work the load up or just pick it?
Mind you, 3" isn't "all over the paper". It's what's known as 'minute of deer'.
As mentioned, not using a good solid rest on the forearm can cause grief.
 
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