Am I a bad American...or facing a common dilema?

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Playboypenguin

Moderator
First off, this post if full up with personal opinion...so if you see something you disagree with feel free to disagree.

I fell out of love with Reagan due to an administration filled with corruption and convenient memory lapses yet I still supported Bush Sr. and voted for him with my fingers crossed. After one term of seeing a man that was not the same as the one who coined the term "VooDoo economics" but instead a puppet of big business I turned on him and voted for change. That change was Clinton.

I liked the things Clinton was doing and I like the direction the economy was going so I voted for him again (and no the good economy was not because of the things Bush senior did...get over that tired old argument).

The whole time I remained a registered republican and voted primarily republican in other races. I started feeling less proud of my party when they started their witch hunts by attacking Clinton on his private affairs when they could not attack his politics. Not that I do not think he should have shown a little more restraint, I just don't think anyone's sex life is my business if all parties are consenting adults. Infidelity is NOT illegal and I do not even know of what rules the Clinton's personal arrangement consisted.

I almost voted for W but could not bring myself to do so because of his strong ties with energy giants and also felt he was just a puppet of the republican machine so I did not vote that election. After four years of Bush I reluctantly voted for Kerry because anything had to be better.

Now I find myself in a place where I could easily see myself not voting this year also. I do not care for either side.

I do not think Hillary is as altruistic as she seems and I do not think the way to fix the country is to take it from the American corporations that seem to own it now and sell it to the Chinese. I also just do not care for Obama at all. I think he is an ego trip gone way to far. It may be petty but I also find the fact that he is a smoker makes me think he has poor judgement and a weakness of character.

As for the republican side I fear we will have to choose between a preacher and a mormon. Neither of which I can support. A preacher swears an oath to god and the church above all else (am I to believe he will just ignore these deep convictions when deciding policy) and someone that willingly follows a religion as nutty and hateful as the mormon faith just creeps me out.

I know things have to change or we are going to be headed towards third world status soon. Our banks are already in trouble, our currency is declining, we are starting to be considered a "risky" investment by other countries, our military is strained, our economy is propped up on thin and faultering legs, and the middle class is declining fast. Religion has been allowed to take to strong ahold of our political system. Evident in cases of abstinence only programs in schools and lack of proper sex education (which has had the wonderful result of teen pregnancies rates rising for the first time in sixteen years).

So, am I a bad American for feeling like their is no good choice?

...or am I in the same boat as a lot of middle of the road Americans?
 
Playboypenguin said:
I liked the things Clinton was doing and I like the direction the economy was going so I voted for him again (and no the good economy was not because of the things Bush senior did...get over that tired old argument).
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You asked for an opinion, here's mine.

I was a credit manager for thirty years--in of all areas credit, collection and the re-organization of distressed companies. (I disguised myself with suits, handmade shoes and the use of proper grammar and no one knew I was really a biker. Heh, heh.)

In working with companies on the ropes it became clear to me that the "business cycle" I heard about in college was a reality, and it's a living breathing fang-sprouting monster whose wafts and wanes destroy even the best companies. Conventional wisdom of the 1950's and '60's believed that such a cycle took over twenty-five years. It might be shorter due to outside pressures.

You are indeed correct that Clinton's economy was not tied to Bush41. In reality, Clinton's hay-day was actually the implementation of policies under Reagan--who ripped off his economic profile from none other than JFK.

Think about the problems we face today. We have a thinned military presence. Things like larger corporations and new building are at an all time low for 'boomers. Foreign allies are nowhere to be found, and even smacking around a feudal desert people takes every JDAM we can build and alter. And the fact is a depression is coming, probably sooner than pundits project. They like to keep ideas positive for fear of setting off bank runs simply due to fear.

So, whose policies does this condition remind you? Weak money, an army with no depth on the bench, distrust in government (even you feel that way) and dim light at the end of the tunnel? And some people want to vote for his wife.

The simple fact of this condition is that our next President is more likely to fail than succeed. There wil be many unpopular programs before things improve. My guess is that the next Commander-in-Chief will have a one term gig.

I wish Reagan was back, or could be cloned. None of the current slate really has the cajones to do anything of value. Oliver North isn't running, he can take a punch, too bad. G. Gordon Liddy is a felon, he can't run. And I'm re-building my Harley.

I believe that anyone who can help us is in hiding.
 
I served in the military under Carter and Reagan, so in my opinion, Reagan was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Going from the Iran Hostages to the military machine Reagan built was awesome.

I voted for Bush(41), but he lost all of my respect with his gun bans. I voted again for him because I totally despise the Clintons, then and now.

Voted for Bush(43) twice. I agree with some of his decisions and disagree with others. Overall I am satisfied with him. IMO, we would have ended up fighting Iraq eventually.

However, with this election, I too find myself not really caring who wins. I don't like any of them. Maybe four years of democratic failure would do the republican party some good.
 
Tourist, I always like your posts. Your one insightful biker. It's good to see that people with long views still walk around.

I agree that whoever the next President is will not have a good term. I wonder if they will actually have the integrity to take on the task or spend 4 years blaming a predecessor. I too see no Regan's or JFK's in the bunch. I do see alot of lack of integrity.

I wish we had more people that saw what JFK and Reagan had in common that was so successful. The reassurance that they had faith and confidence in individual Americans' ability to thrive and be trusted with the authority to make that happen for themselves. That lower taxes and regulations bolster economies. That strength not acquiescence provides security. Standing strong against your obviously most threating force is how peace is achieved. Peace isn't not fighting, it is the lack of the threat to be willing to engage. Reagan called it peace through strength and peace by victory. Gun owners call it the RKBA.
 
I don't recall- but we can't run a felon for president? I thought Bill Clinton was technically a felon for his "Criminal Contempt" charge. It wasn't simple contempt like the judge gave me, but "Criminal".

Secondly- This country hasn't hit rock bottom yet and like all addicts, it must hit a major financial catastrophy before it reforms. Simple truths are that we simply cannot maintain the expense of an Army overseas. We are borrowing money from other countries in order to do that now. How long can that last?

Another problem is that our education system is broken. A simple truism is that (I'm quoting Neal Boortz here) a Catholic School will teach that you can't have too much Catholism, a Muslim School will teach similar things about Islam, and a government school will teach...

I am befuddled at how completely ignorant of politics students are and they just really don't care. They will be the biggest victims of their ignorance, but I will also be a victim. They'll vote (as will many) based on who is the best looking, or gender or race based decision and not worry about the consequences- and after going to college and being preached to that diversity is far more important than quality, they have no grounding to base a good decision on.

We live in a society that is completely removed from reality in most cases. It is frightening. Ask 100 college students to define what an inalienable right is (not give an example, but define it as the founders would have), and you will most assuredly get 100 incorrect answers. I know this because one of my professors did this and guaranteed a C for the entire course to anybody even remotely correct. I got a C, and was the only one in 12 years he said who did (but I hang out at TFL a lot).

This board is not characteristic of American Society at large, and even here I find very few who value the whole Bill of Rights and want it applied to all Americans evenly.

Don't fear too much Playboy, you can always vote Libertarian if nothing else. A vote there is a vote for "none of the above".
 
We are like hogs looking a pile of crap after a corn eating contest and trying to find the turd with the most kernels in it.

None of the choices are really ones that one can be enthusiastic about.
 
Retired from the US Army in 1979. Could not stand any more of Mr. Carter. Additionally, I was an EOD M/Sgt. and would have ran myself to death chasing after the Secret Service and the presidential candidates in 1980. Yes, US military EOD folks are tasked with playing dog robber for the Secret Service.

So I went to work in a succession of foreign countries. When Kuwait was invaded I was the Saudi senior firing range advisor. Was very proud of those US troops who used our ranges and fought in Desert Storm. This was the very best military that the US ever had. Unfortunately, the political hacks were working on gutting the US military even before Desert Storm.

Bush I and Bill Clinton destroyed the finest US military that ever existed in the name of saving money. Now we are reduced to a shell of a military whose fine troops are being run to death with deployments.

Wya promised to "take care of veterans." He "took care" of veterans by raising the medical prescription co-pay, closing all veterans outreach clinics and totally disenfranchising about 300,000 veterans.

Voted the Republican party line for five decades: Ain't drinking their poisoned Kool Aid any more. Held my nose, voted and puked too many times. There is not one dimes difference between Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Rudy Baby or Romney. I could care less which one is elected next November.

I gotta puke.
 
Big fat turd or a Giant douche, which do you like best?

Neither.


I've been faced with this delima since I was able to vote.

I dont feel bad for not particapting in a clearly rigged system.

Go ahead and flame me......
 
teifmen1948 said:
Go ahead and flame me......
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I am a diehard conservative. However, I believe that Jimmy Carter was one of the most intelligent, sincere and yet misguided Chief Executives we ever had.

He was an honest man beaten by factors no one should have to face.

Reagan saved us, and yet the it would have been nice to see a few of Jimmy's concerns actually implemented. He builds homes, very well and good. But he left no footprint on history.
 
Grandpa here!

I used to care. Yet I find it harder and harder every day to see any light at the beginning of the tunnel, and none whatsoever at the end. Look at the families living on the edge of poverty, the people wearing two or more layers of clothing IN THEIR OWN HOME trying to cut the cost of heating, the people who are giving up and staying home simply because they can't afford a decent car, or repairs, or the gas to run it. Watch the cost of every transported consumable going out of sight and the produce that spoils at the stores every day because no one can afford it. Green peppers at .99 each!

Look at the credit industry struggling to survive, and the houses sitting empty because the boomers can't afford a second home any more, and very few are in the market for second homes anyway. Look at the building industry, the wholesale suppliers, the trucking companies and maintenance industry. All going down the tubes.

Why? Simple economics. America has been selling itself overseas for generations. Major industries like mining are controlled by foreign companies, the ports are no longer controlled by America, they have been sold or leased to foreign companies. Our fast food outlets are largely held by foreign companies, We buy the vast majority of our energy sources from overseas while vast pools of petroleum and natural gas are left unproductive or untapped.

We have no one to blame but ourselves. We have sold ourselves into economic slavery at a very high price. We are like the person who sells him/her self into indentured status and then complains about not being a "free" person. We can't have it both ways. Either we re-establish our economic sovereignty, or we stay slaves to the world economy I can't even imagine what the world will be like for my 24 year old son when he is my age.

Frankly, it all just makes me sick.
 
Infidelity is NOT illegal
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Perjury however, is illegal.

Clinton was impeached for committing perjury, and not for having an affair.

It's hard to see how perjury cannot meet the "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" standard for impeachment.

Anyhow...

So, am I a bad American for feeling like their is no good choice?
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Heh, join the club.

Maybe Bobby Jindel (R-LA) in 8 years.
 
However, I believe that Jimmy Carter was one of the most intelligent, sincere and yet misguided Chief Executives we ever had.

He was an honest man beaten by factors no one should have to face.
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+1 on that about Carter. Even though I didn't agree with him on many things, I certainly respected him (though I wasn't quite old enough to vote for him).

I dont feel bad for not particapting in a clearly rigged system.
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When I see the many quotes like the above ... it reminds me of a 4 year old who takes all of his toys and goes home because not everyone wants to play like he does.

The bad news is ... we may live in a Republic, meaning that the states have powers, but it is a DEMOCRATIC republic. We elect leaders, and those leaders pass laws. Those laws bind us whether we like them or not. And those leaders can change the constitution in any manner they want to if it conflicts with the laws they want, including making us not be a republic (80% accomplished) and even taking away "god given" laws like RKBA, since God does not have a veto power in Congress.

So if you want to tell yourself:

Big fat turd or a Giant douche
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and rationalize not getting involved ... good luck with that. The rest of the population will make decisons without your input or influence of anykind, and you will deal with the consequences and be bound by the laws. And if the consequences include the BATF bursting into your little fenced enclosure because you didn't turn in your guns when required to by law and you end up with a bullet in your head and possibly the rest of your family ... don't come crying to me.

Like it or not, the masses don't want Ron Paul. If the majority of Americans did, we'd get Ron Paul as well as a congress to support him.

So the best we can do is try to influence the public and change people's minds so that they do want someone closer to what we want, and in the meantime vote in some manner so that the politicians care about your opinion. Because here's a clue ... if the politicians know that a certain faction doesn't vote ... they no longer care about that faction. And don't care what the BATF does to them.

So don't be a pouty four year old. That does nothing for anybody.

Vote and make your opinions known.

Sorry ... but that's the only sensible and intelligent way to look at it.
 
those leaders can change the constitution in any manner they want to if it conflicts with the laws they want,
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Garand: They don't even bother with changing the constitution. There's no need. They control the public schools. Did you ever wonder how they needed a Constitutional Amendment to ban alcohol, but did not need one to ban Marijuanna (banned for the first time in 1951 IIRC)? They just do whatever they want. The 10th Amendment is an embarrassment to them.
 
Garand: They don't even bother with changing the constitution. There's no need. They control the public schools. Did you ever wonder how they needed a Constitutional Amendment to ban alcohol, but did not need one to ban Marijuanna (banned for the first time in 1951 IIRC)? They just do whatever they want. The 10th Amendment is an embarrassment to them.
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I don't disagree with that.

But "they" are still elected officials. "They" are the people we want doing the things we want done. The masses don't oppose laws against pot, so the politicians get away with it.

Get a ground swell of people who demand a more constitutional government and we get it.

Or find a better country to live in ... yeah. I think we're better working on this one. ;)
 
But are we supposed to just ignore the obvious fraud of last elections?
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A good question.

I don't think we should ignore any fraud, of course, but to the extent there was fraud in both cases it was minimal and if it affected the election it was only because it was a close race. We've just got to do everything we can to make sure that local election officials are held to account and there are enough watchdogs to avoid massive fraud (from looking at both the history of the US and countries worldwide, I don't think you can avoid a small percentage of fraud in any democracy, but what's the alternative? I'm ready to become supreme ruler for life of the U.S., but very few support me in that).

Even Hugo Chavez couldn't control his elections enough to get through the reforms he wanted, and our elections have a lot more checks and balances than his. The fraud we see here may be able to tweak the scales in a neck and neck race, but if 60% of American's vote one way, it's not going to be possible to turn that aside.

Unless we really let things get out of control.

If you're looking for absolute perfection in any human endeavor, you are in for disappointments my friend.
 
Wow, KjM your first post in this thread really nails my thoughts, Texas A&M
perhaps turns out a few people who can think for themselves.:)
 
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